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Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

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101–110 of 251 posts

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progress relies strongly on unreasonable people like Linus. Keep in mind that Github mutilated his baby so that's a pretty good reason to be upset.

Github also created the most productive (set of) open source communities ever around "his" baby. Seriously: Everyone calling Github "garbage" should be forced to use sourceforge until they're willing to reconsider. Or Bugzilla. Or trac. Or whatever it is that ubuntu is using to make it impossible to ever find anything.

I don't see why you deem Trac worse than GitHub for helping a project.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#102

I'm fine with that. Github is 'too large to fail' already, adding the Linux kernel to the pile and forcing the kernel team into Github's workflow are two big negatives. It would be great for Github but bad for everybody else.

Personally I'm a fan (and user) of gitlab since GitHub's recent policies and that GitHub takes forever to implement simple things that all users would love (like free private repos)

I would like a free, private Aston Martin, but the manufacturer is taking for ever to implement that too.

But I take your point. This is why I drive a Nissan.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#103

As I understand, Daniel Vetter is proposing a "monotree" as a source code control pattern where a monorepo (and its branches) is not the primary place where development is done, but is rather where works are integrated from subordinate repositories. In particular, he's asking for GitHub to support coordination (issues and pull requests) spanning upstream repositories that are indicated by a particular change request.…

I believe Cononical's launchpad was built to achieve such workflows. It came out of the need to create an integration platform taking upstream versions of software and applying Ubuntu-specific fixes. In the old days, before git and GitHub won, I liked their bug tracker way over GutHubs as it really supported these flows, where bugs are fixed not in the main repo but by some contributor first. But we'll, wrong bet on bzr ...

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#104

I can't really see the obsession that everyone has with centralised and closed services like github. We need to start moving away from them, not move more projects to them. Mailing lists and NNTP make decentralisation quite easy while being open standards and without having the need to have any account in any centralised service, why drop all these features away?

> We need to start moving away from them, not move more projects to them. It seems this topic comes up quite frequently on HN. Unfortunately, while it sounds great in theory, no one ever has a practical way of doing this. The main problem here is the user experience. When using GitHub I can find an open source project, copy the URL, pull it down, make changes, push and click a button for a pull request. A little bit…

I think that works for smaller projects, but for larger projects that require more coordination, have heavy c-i running, etc, I don't think it makes as much of a difference.

However, there are some alternatives for larger projects: 1- make sure your community has a business model (donations or other forms of funding) for core infrastructure, 2- self-host a Gitlab instance :-)

It doesn't completely take care of decentralisation, but nothing stops from having multiple instances and some c-i duct tape. Github can also make a good mirror.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like open source projects are immortal. Some die due to poor management, lost developer interest, lost funding, or some fork becoming more popular. Or all of the above.

For me Linux is the core of the open source movement. If it dies the rest of it might die with it.

Wow. That's bleak. Linux will not last forever, irrespective of how it might change.

Change is gonna come someday. Don't get left behind because of sentiment. This isn't a judgment on the Linux project, this is reality.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#106

I'm fine with that. Github is 'too large to fail' already, adding the Linux kernel to the pile and forcing the kernel team into Github's workflow are two big negatives. It would be great for Github but bad for everybody else.

Personally I'm a fan (and user) of gitlab since GitHub's recent policies and that GitHub takes forever to implement simple things that all users would love (like free private repos)

So that's why it's a good idea to use bitbucket as well. Then you get the free private repos there.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#107

There's also Linus's personal aversion to how GitHub implements many opinionated workflows. > I don't do github pull requests. > > github throws away all the relevant information, like having even a > valid email address for the person asking me to pull. The diffstat is > also deficient and useless. > > Git comes with a nice pull-request generation module, but github > instead decided to replace it with their own tot…

He really talks in extremes. I see all his points but it doesn't make these things pure garbage.

Linus has a very successful project, he put in a lot of hard graft to get his project where it is, he continues to put a lot of hard graft, and he has a very limited amount of time. We can ask him to sugar coat his communications, so had not to ruffle too many feathers, or we can ask him to churn out as much techinical work as possible. I think we're asking him to churn out as much technical work as possible, so therefore he is optimising against that and his communications with humans are going to be terse. Maybe we need intermediaries to assist him in managing his communications, but then we loose direct access, so ultimately there has to be compromise.

There is always compromise. We can ask Linus to compromise, or we can. Are his inputs better put in at a technical level or at a human touchy-feelie level? What do you think is the best use of Linus' time?

It is incredibly easy to offer criticism, but very much more difficult to offer real and implementable solutions.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#108
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's had many many years to learn that his style of communication doesn't mesh with most people. Well, considering that Linux is pretty much powering the world it seems to me that his style of communication tends to mesh perfectly well with the people that he's working with and that they actually get the job done. As opposed to a whole pile of floundering competitors which are of course much better from a technical…

He surrounds himself with people that are willing to put up with his communication style. That doesn't mean he has a good communication style. > If you're easily offended don't contribute to the Linux kernel. That's a pretty shitty attitude to take. And you don't have to be "easily offended" to dislike interacting with Linus.

> That's a pretty shitty attitude to take.

Why?

The Linux kernel is mission critical, that means that tons of business and individual depend on it for all kinds of stuff that if it went down would be a major event with the losses likely hard to put a figure on.

Developing for such an environment tends to be a fairly harsh affair, Linus was not bred for this, he more or less accidentally found himself the leader of a substantial software effect, the likes of which had not been seen before outside of very large corporations. The fact that he managed to make this work and managed to get together a band of developers that work well with him - regardless of style - speaks volumes to me, I know I couldn't do it, work the best part of my life to give away my work and to be scolded for the form of my delivery would be reason enough for me to throw the towel in.

Personally, I've known bosses that were a lot less reasonable than Linus is who tends to simply be direct, to the point and sometimes (rare enough that people feel the need to point out their favorites) makes social faux-pas that I feel are minor issues, stuff that if it is part of someone's personality you can easily step over.

I've yet to be in a work environment where there aren't one or two 'hard cases' and typically they have their reasons for being short tempered, such as that when the shit hits the fan it is their shoulders that a disproportionate helping of manure will land on.

Being the maintainer of a large open source project has to among the the most thankless jobs in the world, being the chief maintainer of the Linux kernel is probably one of the worst of those.

The only other person in the open source community that gets such treatment is RMS and I really fail to see what the big deal is.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people really don't seem to get is that Linus' cultural background is Finnish, and that Finns tend to be extremely outspoken and that they couldn't lie or polish their words if their life depended on it. http://www.karelia.fi/welcomingguide/the-finnish-way-of-life What to American sensibilities are grave insults to Linus is most likely just him speaking his mind without any filter in place, the way he was brough…

Torvaldes is not proud of his behavior, https://www.ted.com/talks/linus_torvalds_the_mind_behind_lin...

Which to me makes it even less of an issue.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "Linus is an asshole" is well overplayed, though. The guy's been developing Linux for 25 years, with most of his communications in the open. The kind of outburst he has once every few years, and which gets extensive coverage and discussion, is a weekly occurrence in many offices. It's just that we'll never hear of those.

And I've yet to see someone single out a particularly nice and constructive comment and use that for a counterpoint.

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