Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 228 posts

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#61

Post by evolve2017 »

Mz wrote: post #34

I was in the throes of a brief, doomed romance. I had attended a concert that Saturday night. I answered the question with an account of both. The guys stared blankly. Then silence. Then one of them said: “I built a fiber-channel network in my basement,” and our co-workers fell all over themselves asking him to describe every step in loving detail. At that moment I realized that fundamentally, these are not my people…

I agree with you in part - I find the biological explanations very unsatisfying given the many peculiar things we are socialized to do (proms, engagement proposals, baby showers, amongst many others, likely do not find their origins in our genes).

An analogy I thought of while reading this was that of a broken random number generator function. We're more likely to assess the software/environment in which the code is running than to blame the underlying computer.

This doesn't change my overall conclusions, but I think the role of work colleagues in personal friendships is field-dependent, and even then, workplace dependent. In my industry, some work groups spend inordinate amounts of time together, whereas I would rather go home at the end of a work day. These differences don't map cleanly to gender composition.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#62

Post by OCASM »

Mz wrote: post #34

I was in the throes of a brief, doomed romance. I had attended a concert that Saturday night. I answered the question with an account of both. The guys stared blankly. Then silence. Then one of them said: “I built a fiber-channel network in my basement,” and our co-workers fell all over themselves asking him to describe every step in loving detail. At that moment I realized that fundamentally, these are not my people…

Sounds like these guys developed in wombs filled with high amounts of testosterone.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#64

Post by jasode »

tptacek wrote: post #54
jasode wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Companies that attempt to cram 60 hours of productivity into 40 hour weeks suffer for it: Sorry for not being clear. I'm not talking about burning 60+ hours for the company . I'm talking about the attraction to programming personalities that truly enjoy programming on their own time . E.g... The programmer spends exactly 40 hours for Google/Facebook/Microsoft and another 20 on his weekend programming side project be…

Plenty of seriously hardcore people do not spend 20 hours on their weekends writing more code. Obviously, there are lots of programmers who do, but I think what's happening here is pretty simple: the people who have "writing more computer code" as their personal hobby are excited to feel superior to those who don't.

>I think what's happening here is pretty simple: the people who have "writing more computer code" as their personal hobby are excited to feel superior to those who don't.

Maybe some of that sentiment is happening. That's orthogonal to the point that programmers who enjoy programming as a passion (that's a dangerous word) naturally will prefer hiring programmers who enjoy it beyond the boundaries of a 40-hour job.

It's just human affinity. Think of rock bands starting up in a garage. The singer + bass player + drummer are looking to add a guitarist. If they interview a guitarist and he says, "well, I'll just strum whatever and it don't matter if I play with you guys or on a cruise ship or a Las Vegas lounge bar -- guitar is just a job", he won't get an offer to join. For the band members, music is their life.

Since programming is often "fun" and software engineering is similar to "artistry", it's natural for programmers who enjoy coding for fun to want to hang around other programmers who enjoy it in a similar degree. This culture is especially true for startups. As the company matures, it becomes less important.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#65

Post by tptacek »

js8 wrote: post #58
tptacek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, his argument is straightforward and lots of other people have made it before. A shorter way of saying it would be "if you don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers, you are likely to be made to feel unwelcome".

> "if you don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers, you are likely to be made to feel unwelcome" Funny, I don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers. I like Minecraft, and only one colleague I know who enjoys it is a (very smart) woman, although she is a tech writer, not a developer (she is perfectly capable of programming, in fact it is her hobby, she just likes writin…

I'm deliberately oversimplifying. If you:

1. Like sports

2. Wear expensive or formal clothing

3. Dislike video games

4. Are uninterested in science fiction

5. Don't drink

6. Are over 50

... you'll find valley software development culturally inhospitable. Obviously, lots of well-dressed 50 year old baseball fans have programming jobs. But those people don't "read" as software developers, and if you take those people and strip away their resumes, they will underperform people that don't have those characteristics in software development interviews.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#66

Post by [deleted] »

earlyresort wrote: post #46

The idea that you've got to be some sort of obsessive wretch with no life outside of tech in order to successfully fill a role at a tech company is nothing but a pernicious myth. So is the idea that you've got to be some ridiculous super-genius. All you have to do is be reasonably smart and capable of learning on the job. When interviewers at tech companies mistakenly believe that every successful candidate has to be…

[deleted]

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#67

Post by tptacek »

jasode wrote: post #64
tptacek wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of seriously hardcore people do not spend 20 hours on their weekends writing more code. Obviously, there are lots of programmers who do, but I think what's happening here is pretty simple: the people who have "writing more computer code" as their personal hobby are excited to feel superior to those who don't.

>I think what's happening here is pretty simple: the people who have "writing more computer code" as their personal hobby are excited to feel superior to those who don't. Maybe some of that sentiment is happening. That's orthogonal to the point that programmers who enjoy programming as a passion (that's a dangerous word) naturally will prefer hiring programmers who enjoy it beyond the boundaries of a 40-hour job. It'…

Sucks if you're a new parent who codes, doesn't it?

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#68

Post by rtx »

ucaetano wrote: post #35
zby wrote: post #19

Similar to the diagnosis by Jordan Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eieVE-xFXuo Personally I think it is oversimplification - the thing is that - yes there is a root cause in biology - but than that root cause is multiplied by social circumstances. If there are few women in tech - then it is costly for employers to adjust to them (stuff like adding women sizes t-shirts) - plus it is also cheaper intellectual…

> yes there is a root cause in biology No. Proof: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel... If there was a root cause in biology, in 1980 there wouldn't be the same % of women in CS as in business, or almost the same as social sciences. Or almost the same as there are women in math/stats today. Something happened in the early 80's. I have a hypothesis for that, tied to the rise of video-games, s…

Abstraction, that's what happened.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#69

Post by sigstoat »

_jgvg wrote: post #60
sigstoat wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my father taught programming and CS-lite courses at a community college for decades. whatever culture the students have, it sure as hell isn't the valley one, or anything like i saw in university.

I'm not talking about valley culture, but, for example, liking star wars, XKCD, Tolkien, video games, etc. Do the students in those community colleges share that as well?

i know what you're talking about, and no, his students didn't share that culture, or any other you're worried about. or probably any you've ever even seen unless you're from the rural south. in which case we wouldn't even be having this conversation in the first place.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#70

Post by notacoward »

_jgvg wrote: post #13

I have never seen any career that is so deeply tied to a certain culture as CS/SWE and a certain culture that I'll call X, to avoid any discussions on naming and so on. I see far more diversity in tastes and interests in most other majors and careers, while in CS/SWE, X seems to hold a monopoly. CS/SWE goes far beyond a career, usually becoming close to a religion or way of life. I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or mos…

I've noticed something pretty similar. I do appreciate video games and board games and speculative fiction and sushi and campy/punny humor and all the rest, but I've worked at companies where anyone who leaned more toward Agatha Christie and cake decorating (for example) might have felt pretty left out. The more pure-software a company is, the more everybody seems to assume that others share at least 70% of the standard obsessions - which now includes weight training, home brewing, and beard maintenance as well. It's pretty sad when people in advertising or even finance seem to have and accommodate more diverse interests. Wouldn't be surprised if undertakers do too, though I don't happen to know any personally. We are an extraordinarily fashion-driven folk, and that's not a good thing.
Post reply on HN