Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 108 posts

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#81

Post by albertgoeswoof »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #70
oxide wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost me a couple dollars last night to send 70 dollars in btc to a friend. Last month it was 3 dollars and change. I'm thankful it was slightly more reasonable. I might use an alt coin for awhile to save on fees.

That seems very expensive, I was expecting it to be practically free as I'd heard it was transforming the money-sending space?? How much does Paypal charge to send $70 to a friend, isn't it free?

It is super expensive, but this is more of an issue with bitcoin's design than the actual concept. Bitcoin is the first blockchain tech created, there are many others that have a much closer to zero cost of transaction, and will continue to do so.

It's kind of like saying the web in 1991 was expensive to use.

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#82

Post by charlesdm »

jstanley wrote: post #79
charlesdm wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. But fiat currency will never disappear in favour of Bitcoin, nor will it be replaced by Bitcoin. Taxes will also have to be paid in fiat, etc. The comparison is akin to someone in Europe exchanging EUR to USD as an investment, because he's betting on the fx rate. But why would the average European ever need to hold USD? Not that many situations that make sense either.

I hear what you're saying, but I personally think you're wrong. I think fiat currency will disappear in favour of bitcoin (or similar), and I think it will happen within only a small number of generations. It will happen because bitcoin (or similar) is a superior form of money.

Maybe. I don’t know. I can see fiat currencies ending up being completely digital within the next 50 years or so, in a continued effort to combat tax evasion.

But I’m pretty sure central banks (or well, the elected politicians behind them) can’t and won’t give up control of their respective currency, because they use it as a way to adjust and regulate the economy.

If you look at what is happening in the Eurozone with the ECB and the previous discussions about Eurobonds, it's a one approach fits all solution, but it doesn't work for all. What is great for Germany sucks for Greece, and that is because goals are not aligned. If you have, say, one "global" cryptocurrency, then I think there are some inherent flaws to that approach.

And if you go the full currency route, you essentially end up with a digital equivalent of fiat?

Look: honestly, I want to believe, but no one has managed to convince me with proper arguments what would drive it to that outcome. Most people that I've met are just excited because they've turned $10k into $1M (or more) and now think they're the best investors in the world.

So, why would it happen? You need to give me more than its a superior form of money. I'm not saying it's not. I just don't see how we can get there from where we are now.

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#83

Post by albertgoeswoof »

phailhaus wrote: post #53

I've noticed this about Bitcoin. It's not hard to understand at all, but everyone attempts to dive into the technical details right from the start and this loses most people. The core conceit that people gloss over is the fact there is no such thing as a "wallet" that "stores" bitcoins. The only thing that exists is a public record of numbers saying they're giving bitcoins to other numbers. When you create a "wallet"…

What's really hard is to get your head around is the random number- what are the chances someone will have the same number as me? For anyone that asks, the answer is basically 0, because maths

For a trustless currency there's a lot of trust going on there!

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#84

Post by sowbug »

Bitcoin is simple the same way Git is simple. Appreciating it is less about understanding the technology and more about caring why the solution matters.

Git is just a way to deal with objects in a DAG (insert standard joke about homeomorphic endofunctors mapping submanifolds of a Hilbert space). Not super difficult. But unless you have worked in a horrible version-control system, you probably just don't care about having that capability, so when someone starts excitedly jumping up and down while showing you how easy it is to draw a line connecting two circles, you might figure you just aren't smart enough to get it.

Likewise, Bitcoin is a combination of recognizing a certain problem and exploiting a certain technology to solve it. If you understand that distributed, trustless consensus is a hard problem, and that digital signatures and proof-of-work algorithms combine in this exciting way to solve it, then Bitcoin makes perfect sense. But otherwise your inner voice keeps asking "why are we even discussing this?" and making you feel dumb.

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#85

Post by dTal »

phailhaus wrote: post #53

I've noticed this about Bitcoin. It's not hard to understand at all, but everyone attempts to dive into the technical details right from the start and this loses most people. The core conceit that people gloss over is the fact there is no such thing as a "wallet" that "stores" bitcoins. The only thing that exists is a public record of numbers saying they're giving bitcoins to other numbers. When you create a "wallet"…

Excellent comment. You should do a "Bitcoin demystified" blog post or something.

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#86

Post by ozim »

joemi wrote: post #41
atemerev wrote: post #12

What's hard to understand about the fork? Bitcoin is an equation. A mathematical specification of how much bitcoins are there at any given moment of time, how new blocks are added to the chain, which sequence of blocks is accepted to be authoritative, etc. This is why it is a work of genius. An equation can't be hacked, unless you can challenge underlying mathematical assumptions, which is somewhat hard to do. Howeve…

Most of what you wrote won't make sense to non-developers. Hell, it won't even make sense to all developers. I'd say that's hard to understand, then.

Like for instance GIT, it still is considered hard by a lot of developers. Try to explain it to some common people. But also nowadays most developers use Git daily anyway.

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#87

Post by jstanley »

charlesdm wrote: post #82
jstanley wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear what you're saying, but I personally think you're wrong. I think fiat currency will disappear in favour of bitcoin (or similar), and I think it will happen within only a small number of generations. It will happen because bitcoin (or similar) is a superior form of money.

Maybe. I don’t know. I can see fiat currencies ending up being completely digital within the next 50 years or so, in a continued effort to combat tax evasion. But I’m pretty sure central banks (or well, the elected politicians behind them) can’t and won’t give up control of their respective currency, because they use it as a way to adjust and regulate the economy. If you look at what is happening in the Eurozone with…

My theory is that Fiat currencies and their central banks are beneficial only to the state, and not to individuals. And that for any system to be viable in the long-term, it needs to benefit individuals else they won't use it.

1.) To a first approximation, central bank policy consists of creating lots more money, all the time.

That is a bad thing for anybody holding the currency (everyone). Therefore these people (everyone) are incentivised not to hold the currency, and instead to hold a currency that can not be inflated away from them. For example, bitcoin.

2.) We're heading towards a cashless society. If the manifestation of a cashless society is one based on fiat currency, that means every single transaction and all money are subject to surveillance, censorship, and even seizure. By the state and by private companies.

Anybody who doesn't want those things to happen to them (everyone) is therefore incentivised to use a currency which is not subject to those things. For example, bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#88

Post by charlesdm »

jstanley wrote: post #87
charlesdm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. I don’t know. I can see fiat currencies ending up being completely digital within the next 50 years or so, in a continued effort to combat tax evasion. But I’m pretty sure central banks (or well, the elected politicians behind them) can’t and won’t give up control of their respective currency, because they use it as a way to adjust and regulate the economy. If you look at what is happening in the Eurozone with…

My theory is that Fiat currencies and their central banks are beneficial only to the state, and not to individuals. And that for any system to be viable in the long-term, it needs to benefit individuals else they won't use it. 1.) To a first approximation, central bank policy consists of creating lots more money, all the time. That is a bad thing for anybody holding the currency (everyone). Therefore these people (ev…

What you're saying makes sense to some extent and I don't necessarily disagree. But instead of holding currencies, why not hold assets? Any asset, for that matter. Whether it's property, one or multiple businesses, royalty generating IP rights, etc.

You describe Bitcoin as a currency. To me, while it looks like a currency, it's not actually a currency. It seems more like a pure asset class.

I mean, maybe I'm a minority here, but who holds significant cash in a checking account these days -- especially with the market booming during the last few years like it has?

If you look at what happened with QE in the last few years, asset holders (i.e. mostly the upper classes) essentially made bank, because debt got extremely cheap and the value of the currency declined. The average saver lost money, or at least yield, because it didn't make any sense to save money.

The reason why I can't see fiat disappearing is because the government is in control and makes laws as they see fit. I don't agree with all levied taxes yet will still pay them. Even if I didn't want to pay them, my only alternative is to relocate to a different country.

Useful PoV though, thanks!

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#89

Post by noddy1 »

elmar wrote: post #37
puranjay wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is what makes Bitcoin's democratic credentials so ridiculous. "It will free us from fiat money!" No it won't. It's just a transfer of wealth from educated elite to other educated elite. 99% of the world's population can't understand it. 99.5% can't mine it. It's so damn elitist that it's not even funny.

Many people in Venezuela have turned to Bitcoin mining in a desperate attempt to fend off starvation and keep their families alive. http://bitcoinist.com/starving-venezuelans-turn-to-bitcoin-m...

I've been paying venezuelan contractors in bitcoin - it works amazingly well for them.

Re: Bitcoin Makes Even Smart People Feel Dumb

#90

Post by phailhaus »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #83
phailhaus wrote: post #53

I've noticed this about Bitcoin. It's not hard to understand at all, but everyone attempts to dive into the technical details right from the start and this loses most people. The core conceit that people gloss over is the fact there is no such thing as a "wallet" that "stores" bitcoins. The only thing that exists is a public record of numbers saying they're giving bitcoins to other numbers. When you create a "wallet"…

What's really hard is to get your head around is the random number- what are the chances someone will have the same number as me? For anyone that asks, the answer is basically 0, because maths For a trustless currency there's a lot of trust going on there!

The private key is usually a 256-bit number, which means your private key is going to be anywhere between 1 and 2^256 - 1.

2^256 - 1 is around 1.15e+77, which is ridiculously huge (to put it technically :P)

Post reply on HN