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Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

latimes.com

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Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#181

Post by talmand »

aphextron wrote: post #84

The level of elitism in this thread is staggering. Should kids that are not at the top of their class be left to work in the salt mines? Do we just abandon the idea of educating people and make all universities a private "smart people only" club? The CSU system's mandate is to provide accessible education to all Californians . Ragging on them for working towards that goal makes no sense. The UC system is still the mo…

What's wrong with working a mine? What's wrong with being a plumber? What's wrong with being an electrician? What's wrong with manual labor? What's wrong with the countless good paying jobs that don't require a college education?

I believe you may be the one with the elitist problem.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#182

Post by mannykannot »

ebola1717 wrote: post #159
StanislavPetrov wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you are missing the point. For many years now, admissions standards have been so low that rather than teaching the courses they are scheduled to teach, college professors are forced to offer a remedial review of information that should have been mastered in high school. Many, if not most, high school graduates are functionally illiterate, lacking the basic reading and writing skills we took for granted in the rec…

Those studies are based on high school students... Yes lower-ed degree mills are a huge issue, and need regualating, but that hardly applies to CalState, which is a top tier public school: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/cal-state-la-1140

> Those studies are based on high school students...

Appropriately so, when the issue is their preparedness for further education.

> Yes lower-ed degree mills are a huge issue, and need regualating, but that hardly applies to CalState, which is a top tier public school.

The concern is that it appears to be taking a step in the degree-mill direction. Reading the article in full does not assuage that concern:

“Our timeline for implementation is aggressive,” Minor [Cal State’s senior strategist for academic success and inclusive excellence] said, but “we've got more than enough evidence to suggest that our current treatment of students, with the use of developmental education courses, doesn't serve them very well. ... And we have worked with and talked to our faculty... who are ready to roll up their sleeves and do the hard work that we need to do to serve our students better.” [all elisions were made in the Times article, so I am trusting the journalist has not misrepresented Mr. Minor.]

The justification seems to be that this will work because a) other things do not, and b) we want it to work. Anyone who understands how bureaucracies respond to "aggressive" mandates that specify outcomes for unproven methods probably has misgivings.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#183

Post by such_a_casual »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #92
userbinator wrote: post #19

The hope is that these efforts will also help students obtain their degrees sooner — one of the public university system's priorities. Cal State has committed to doubling its four-year graduation rate, from 19% to 40%, by 2025. The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates…

If a university lowers the bar, it will reduce the value on the job market of a degree from that university - names like Hardvard and Yale and whatnot have a high reputation, whilst they hand out degrees with the same names as other less reputable universities.

They will always have the cream of the crop. It's not comparable to a Cal state.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#185

Post by cafard »

yazan94 wrote: post #109
dragandj wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be surprising? Hungary and Slovak Republic are countries with long traditions of strong education.

For a while, isn't that what we prided ourselves in here in America?

The US has generally done well in expanding access to schooling. That has not been the same as strength in education.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#186

Post by agentgt »

You might be asking how one fails the state testing (then gets put in remedial class) but gets accepted to college (particularly a CA state one).

Let me tell you a funny yet embarrassing story. I went to GaTech and I failed the English Regents test not once but twice!

Now at first I thought it was my fault. I didn't really take the test seriously. However I was seriously embarrassed. After all this was Georgia not California.

Long story short after having to go through a remedial english class that was a complete waste of my time and somewhat embarrassing I learned the reason I was failing.... the exam testers could not read my hand writing!

To this day I'm still sort of jaded about the whole thing.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#187

Post by ThinkingGuy »

mathattack wrote: post #160

This seems like they're focusing on the wrong metric. They look and say, "Graduates earn more money" and say "ok, for the best NPV, let's reduce the cost and increase the graduates". The problem is they mistake causality with correlation. If you focus strictly on graduation, without improving the students, then you will find that graduates will earn less. This same problem happens in high school - lowering the standa…

In my opinion it is part of a wider trend, of both public- and private-sector schools, moving away from the "education business" and more toward the "diploma business."

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#188

Post by cafard »

talmand wrote: post #179
rtpg wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the US system has its issues relative to other places, but I have never seen research showing that people are in fact worse going out. In fact, I feel like I've seen a study showing that the "new math" teaching methodologies that get parents so mad nowadays end up with kids being better at math...

Funny, my kids' math teachers have all stated to me, in public not whispers, they hate the "new math" and it is inhibiting them from teaching math correctly. Since I wasn't educated in the "new math" as a kid I have difficulties helping my children with their homework, which the teachers also admitted to being a problem. Typically I just show them how to solve the problem the way I learned and they pick it up much qu…

Does Common Core use what we called "the new math" back in the 1960s? (Tom Lehrer's song is probably as good an intro as any.) Good math teachers seem to be hard to find. That was true in my school days also.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#189

Post by purple-again »

agentgt wrote: post #186

You might be asking how one fails the state testing (then gets put in remedial class) but gets accepted to college (particularly a CA state one). Let me tell you a funny yet embarrassing story. I went to GaTech and I failed the English Regents test not once but twice! Now at first I thought it was my fault. I didn't really take the test seriously. However I was seriously embarrassed. After all this was Georgia not Ca…

I feel that this story needs a date to make any sense. 2015? Wow that's completely ridiculous and infuriating. 1984? Yeah that makes sense, handwriting was a critical skill for effective communication in the college setting.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#190

Post by danschumann »

It seems like they just want EVERYONE to go to college, even if they go $100k into debt to study German Polka History. They should give fewer student loans, or make them bankruptable, and make sure students actually will be financially benefited within 10 years. There is a surplus of students, which technically means they can give inferior education. If there were a shortage of students, universities would need to up their game.
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