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Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

latimes.com

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Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#161

Post by ebola1717 »

vostok wrote: post #87
aphextron wrote: post #84

The level of elitism in this thread is staggering. Should kids that are not at the top of their class be left to work in the salt mines? Do we just abandon the idea of educating people and make all universities a private "smart people only" club? The CSU system's mandate is to provide accessible education to all Californians . Ragging on them for working towards that goal makes no sense. The UC system is still the mo…

> The UC system is still the most prestigious, selective public university system in the world, and this will not affect that. Is the UC system more prestigious than Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, or top prepas/grandes ecoles? Even the most jingoistic American wouldn't argue that the UC system is more prestigious than Oxford or Cambridge for undergraduate studies.

I mean I don't know if Oxford and Cambridge should be considered "public" the way the UCs are, but UC Berkeley and UCLA are in that tier, and like, does changing that line from "in the world" to "in the US" really change the point?

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#162

Post by 0x10101 »

tnzn wrote: post #132
Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

Actually meritocracy is bullshit really. How can you measure merit ? By the outcomes ? Are you seriously believing outcomes measure merit ? If so I have bad news for you. As for the argument that society will collapse because of the democratization of education and degrees and whatnot,it's at least a hundred years old argument. In France the right-wing has been whining about it for 50 years (especially regarding math…

Outcomes on realistic tests of performance, yes.

I think you are thinking of "merit" as some intrinsic property of a person as opposed to measured performance. Some things are hard to measure, but many things are not. Putting people into positions based on the best estimates of how well they would perform is meritocracy.

What is your system for selecting people for positions if not by how well they would perform at the positions? What this typically devolves into patrimonialism or clientelism...where positions are given to related persons, friends, or in exchange for political power.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#163

Post by ebola1717 »

kerpele wrote: post #68

Unless the point is to have more people in regardless of whether they have any possibility to graduate I don't understand this. How many highly talented kids have already been lost just because they didn't know what they wanted in life at 15 and thus have much lower high school grades and sat scores and whatnot than what they are actually capable of?

This isn't an admissions criteria. This is just a commitment to helping kids that come in with weaker backgrounds get up to speed faster, without having to spend credits on remedial classes.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#164

Post by [deleted] »

michaelchisari wrote: post #73
justin_vanw wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course all kinds of people can land in these remedial classes if they are not prepared. Now, I ask you, which schools do a better job of preparing students for college level work, the schools white kids get to go to or the schools black kids have to go to? If you are wondering, look at the AP classes offered at say Palo Alto high school vs Crenshaw high school: http://schools.latimes.com/school/los-angeles/crensha…

Palo Alto Avg. Income: $126,771 Inglewood Avg. Income: $43,394 Wouldn't it make sense to compare like-to-like, and choose two schools in areas with similar incomes?

[deleted]

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#165

Post by 0x10101 »

kashkhan wrote: post #107
Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

college and other education should be about adding learning to the recipients and not about measurement. People should learn things as they want, and not be required to meet arbitrary standards and degrees to obtain societal benefits. A hundred years ago ~1% of the people went to college. Now it's more than 50%. The societal function of college has changed.

"People should learn things as they want, and not be required to meet arbitrary standards and degrees to obtain societal benefits."

Then don't ask me to pay for you to do so. Check some books out of the library.

People are paying a lot of money to universities in exchange get a better life for themselves. If it doesn't improve their skills in any measurable way, we should try something else.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#166

Post by almonj »

They want to lower the bar so that they can pass more low-mediocre people though the system, give them the false idea that they are intelligent and eventually give them government jobs. They need a class of useful idiots in power to achieve their goal of a complete technocratic surveillance state. These type people are already taking power positions all over and totally changing the working culture. Look at that guy who wrote the google diversity criticism memo, it wasn't even a controversial thing, yet he was brought down by this mob of new brainwashed low-intellect people pushing an insane agenda. The kind of person who can't pass a remedial English exam or do any kind of advanced mathematics is perfect for this role. Having advanced reasoning skills, language and mathematics skills actually puts them at a disadvantage here, what they need is a new class of bullies and manipulators that will go along with whatever they are told.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#167

Post by leereeves »

greeneggs wrote: post #147
metaphor wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A distinct flavor of hubris arises from self-proclaimed brilliance being so easily impaired by a silver spoon that isn't quite as shiny.

Yet it is certainly true. More than the professors, I think the peer group matters in pushing students to their full potentials.

It probably has more to do with the simple name of the university opening doors.

Investors and employers will give more to a Harvard grad than to an equally accomplished state-school grad.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#168

Post by 0x10101 »

yorwba wrote: post #129
danieltillett wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes wars have been won and lost for many reasons over history, but since the development of meritocracy (last 200 years) those societies that have embraced it have won all the important wars. Do you really think the nobility just rolled over and gave the middle classes all the power because they asked nicely? Edit. Actually that is exactly what merit is. Meritocracy is not rule by the just, but rule by those most lik…

Can you give examples of societies that have embraced meritocracy? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

I would take a look at Fukuyama's "Origins of Political Order" and "Political Order and Political Decay". The first hints of meritocracy were in China during the Qin and Han dynasties, where exams where used to provide positions in bureaucracy to those not of noble birth.

Prussia was really the first example of this in the west, where in 1770 all civil servants were required to pass a written exam.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#169

Post by almonj »

aphextron wrote: post #84

The level of elitism in this thread is staggering. Should kids that are not at the top of their class be left to work in the salt mines? Do we just abandon the idea of educating people and make all universities a private "smart people only" club? The CSU system's mandate is to provide accessible education to all Californians . Ragging on them for working towards that goal makes no sense. The UC system is still the mo…

Maybe they should work in salt mines? What is so bad about that? We need to get rid of this stigma that if you're not an intellectual then you're automatically some poor serf at the bottom rungs of society. Your attitude is a perfect example of elitist culture, that anyone who doesn't have an "advanced" ""education"" isn't worthy of any dignified position in society. Forcing all people to go through a watered down higher education is wasteful and stupid. Higher education is a thing only needed for certain roles and should only be attempted by a fraction of the population.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#170

Post by 0x10101 »

aphextron wrote: post #82
userbinator wrote: post #19

The hope is that these efforts will also help students obtain their degrees sooner — one of the public university system's priorities. Cal State has committed to doubling its four-year graduation rate, from 19% to 40%, by 2025. The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates…

>The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates high." No. You are completely missing the point here. Graduation requirements have not changed. Students still have to pass the same amount of classes. What this will do is allow students to have a shot at taking actual credit…

"Graduation requirements have not changed. Students still have to pass the same amount of classes. "

This is where you are wrong. Classes such as remedial English or basic mathematics did not used to count for college credit, they now do. Therefore students can graduate with a lower level of performance than was previously possible.

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