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Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

latimes.com

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Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#111

Post by chongli »

danieltillett wrote: post #106
rodgerd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? You mean it sarcastically, but you are literally correct. What has "merit" in so-called meritocracies is entirely subjective.

Unfortunately not. The reason meritocracy has “won” over the last 200 years is those societies that didn’t embrace it lost the wars that were fought.

This is so completely wrong. Wars are won and lost for many, many reasons. Food, resources, location, coincidence, weather, politics, sheer luck.

This is the sort of crap people complain about whenever the meritocracy comes up. Sorry, but merit is not whatever you want it to be after the fact when you point to something that succeeded. That's called the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#112

Post by mamon »

PeterisP wrote: post #102
vostok wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great point. It's certainly possible to design a bad placement test.

It also seems that the now increasingly common format of multiple choice quizzes would be a "railroad" to designing bad placement tests - ones that verify remembering irrelevant details and how things are named/ordered/classified versus ones that verify skills and understanding of core concepts.

Quizzes (both single and multiple choice) are the worst possible way of testing student's knowledge, because they are sooo... easy.

Trouble here is that human memory is an associative memory - being given one piece of information helps you recall other, related piece. So when the correct answer is written down just few lines below the question you'll probably be able to identify it, even if your overall recall of the material is very bad. This strongly encourages learn-pass-forget style of learning.

To better test student's knowledge you need harder tasks: practical exam, asking to actually apply your knowledge. Or write an essay, which at the very least forces you to put your knowledge in some logical structure. Or the oral exam, where it's evident whether you can have intelligent discussion on the topic or not.

The only advantage of quizzes is that they are quick to do, quick to check, and give the teacher illusion of fairness (because there cannot be any debate whether or not answer is correct and complete).

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#114

Post by dalbasal »

bloaf wrote: post #8

This is part of a long and slow change in the role of higher education. Previously, college was seen as being for people who academically deserved it. College was not for teaching high-school level concepts, it was for teaching advanced concepts to students who had already demonstrated some bona fides. Now, it is seen as an extension of high school; the onus is on the college to mold all comers into more educated and…

I think there's always been an interplay between different roles.

If you go back enough, the historical role of college has been that of a "finishing school" for the higher/educated classes. More so, the further you go back.

In places with a more conscious class heritage (eg UK), talented students saw these colleges as a merit-based ticket into the higher classes. Over time, academic merit gained prominence.

Social class largely overlaps with academic merit, so the identities didn't clash too hard. But, you can see both heritages in modern Universities.

For example...Colleges (esp US) are very interested in college as "tranformative years of my life" experience. Generally speaking, this is a luxury only the rich could afford. For the median family, this is still a massive expense.

TLDR: roles change.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#115

Post by mamon »

danieltillett wrote: post #105
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a university lowers the bar, it will reduce the value on the job market of a degree from that university - names like Hardvard and Yale and whatnot have a high reputation, whilst they hand out degrees with the same names as other less reputable universities.

This is the only reason Harvard and Yale have any value. You could take the first year student intake at these institutions and distribute them randomly to other universities and the end result would be the same as letting the students study at Yale or Harvard.

No. If you distributed the students admitted to Harvard among other universities their education would be impaired by the fact that the professors would have to dumb down the material taught in their classes to their less bright colleagues. Not to mention that the professors themselves would not be as smart and accomplished as Harvard professors.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#116

Post by danieltillett »

chongli wrote: post #111
danieltillett wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately not. The reason meritocracy has “won” over the last 200 years is those societies that didn’t embrace it lost the wars that were fought.

This is so completely wrong. Wars are won and lost for many, many reasons. Food, resources, location, coincidence, weather, politics, sheer luck. This is the sort of crap people complain about whenever the meritocracy comes up. Sorry, but merit is not whatever you want it to be after the fact when you point to something that succeeded. That's called the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

Yes wars have been won and lost for many reasons over history, but since the development of meritocracy (last 200 years) those societies that have embraced it have won all the important wars.

Do you really think the nobility just rolled over and gave the middle classes all the power because they asked nicely?

Edit. Actually that is exactly what merit is. Meritocracy is not rule by the just, but rule by those most likely to be winners. It just happens that given the opportunity the “winners" are most likely to be found within then middle class.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#117

Post by xupybd »

kashkhan wrote: post #107
Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

college and other education should be about adding learning to the recipients and not about measurement. People should learn things as they want, and not be required to meet arbitrary standards and degrees to obtain societal benefits. A hundred years ago ~1% of the people went to college. Now it's more than 50%. The societal function of college has changed.

Measurement is a huge value add. It's proof to employers that you know the basics. It's something that you can use to get a job. Learning for the sake of learning is great and all but you also have to put food on the table.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#118

Post by [deleted] »

kashkhan wrote: post #107
Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

college and other education should be about adding learning to the recipients and not about measurement. People should learn things as they want, and not be required to meet arbitrary standards and degrees to obtain societal benefits. A hundred years ago ~1% of the people went to college. Now it's more than 50%. The societal function of college has changed.

[deleted]

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#119

Post by danieltillett »

mamon wrote: post #115
danieltillett wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the only reason Harvard and Yale have any value. You could take the first year student intake at these institutions and distribute them randomly to other universities and the end result would be the same as letting the students study at Yale or Harvard.

No. If you distributed the students admitted to Harvard among other universities their education would be impaired by the fact that the professors would have to dumb down the material taught in their classes to their less bright colleagues. Not to mention that the professors themselves would not be as smart and accomplished as Harvard professors.

I think you are overestimating how much influence professors have (something I lament as a former professor). The high achieving students succeed despite anything their professors might have done or said.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#120

Post by xupybd »

rodgerd wrote: post #100
Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

> Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? You mean it sarcastically, but you are literally correct. What has "merit" in so-called meritocracies is entirely subjective.

I don't think a meritocracy requires the formal education system we have. I'm sure the top trades people in ancient times were high in society.

Also I don't think we have the meritocracy people claim we have. Being born into a well connected wealthy family is such a huge head start. And some of the people at the top seem to have little merit, for example the kardashians seem to be famous because they're famous. Not to pick on them but they are a public example of how money gets money.

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