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Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

latimes.com

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Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#91

Post by vostok »

cbhl wrote: post #88
vostok wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a real issue here? First of all, isn't failing the placement test prima facie evidence that you need remedial courses? Second, at least my school generally gave you enough rope to hang yourself if you wanted to. You want to take arguably the hardest undergraduate math class in the US? Well go ahead...

> First of all, isn't failing the placement test prima facie evidence that you need remedial courses? No. An anecdote: In my tenth grade science class, they had a quiz where you have to memorize the name, atomic number, and atomic size of the first 20 elements of the periodic table. You then fill in the blanks on a table with each of these fields in the columns, and some elements in the rows. I passed this test. In t…

That's a great point. It's certainly possible to design a bad placement test.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#92

Post by Cthulhu_ »

userbinator wrote: post #19

The hope is that these efforts will also help students obtain their degrees sooner — one of the public university system's priorities. Cal State has committed to doubling its four-year graduation rate, from 19% to 40%, by 2025. The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates…

If a university lowers the bar, it will reduce the value on the job market of a degree from that university - names like Hardvard and Yale and whatnot have a high reputation, whilst they hand out degrees with the same names as other less reputable universities.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#93

Post by Rodd45 »

csuwldcat wrote: post #11
oh_sigh wrote: post #2

"At Cal State, about 40% of freshmen each year are considered not ready for college-level work and required to take remedial classes that do not count toward their degrees." This is crazy to me. I'm not familiar with Cal State but do they just let anyone in who applies?

I went to a Cal State university - it was a joke.

Sounds you got bad experience there.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#94

Post by wikibob »

seibelj wrote: post #30

I recently interviewed a master's CS student at a decent state school looking for a part-time job. She had barely programmed before the master's CS (undergrad was in MIS). Did not know what a hash table / dictionary / etc. was. So troubling for someone soon to graduate with a master's in CS.

Which state school?

As mentioned elsewhere, sadly many CS masters programs are designed with the assumption that students already have solid foundations from undergrad CS, but now are often admitting people without those skills.

Also cheating is unbelievably rampant at many state schools (I say this from witnessing it first hand).

Lastly, all the MIS programs I'm familiar with are a sad joke. Often the result of a turf war between a business school and the engineering school, the MIS department is often incredibly weak on the technical side.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#95

Post by StanislavPetrov »

aphextron wrote: post #82
userbinator wrote: post #19

The hope is that these efforts will also help students obtain their degrees sooner — one of the public university system's priorities. Cal State has committed to doubling its four-year graduation rate, from 19% to 40%, by 2025. The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates…

>The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates high." No. You are completely missing the point here. Graduation requirements have not changed. Students still have to pass the same amount of classes. What this will do is allow students to have a shot at taking actual credit…

No, you are missing the point. For many years now, admissions standards have been so low that rather than teaching the courses they are scheduled to teach, college professors are forced to offer a remedial review of information that should have been mastered in high school. Many, if not most, high school graduates are functionally illiterate, lacking the basic reading and writing skills we took for granted in the recent past.

US students ranked 38th out of 71 countries in math, and 28th in science. Kids in Hungary and the Slovak Republic outranked us.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students...

The sad truth is that the university in the USA are just degree mills looking to make the most money possible. They have no problem steadily lowering their standards to match the steady decline in the US educational system as long as the federally-backed student-loans keep rolling in.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#96

Post by nwatson »

aphextron wrote: post #84

The level of elitism in this thread is staggering. Should kids that are not at the top of their class be left to work in the salt mines? Do we just abandon the idea of educating people and make all universities a private "smart people only" club? The CSU system's mandate is to provide accessible education to all Californians . Ragging on them for working towards that goal makes no sense. The UC system is still the mo…

But the article isn't talking about UC, it's talking about CalState ... this link is old, but emphasizes differences between the two school systems: https://www.imperial.edu/ivc/files/WHAT_IS_THE_DIFFERENCE_BE... ... the original article points out this change is in effect at the 23 California State University campuses, and doesn't refer at all to the 9 or 10 (?) University of California campuses.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#97

Post by rtpg »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #95
aphextron wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates high." No. You are completely missing the point here. Graduation requirements have not changed. Students still have to pass the same amount of classes. What this will do is allow students to have a shot at taking actual credit…

No, you are missing the point. For many years now, admissions standards have been so low that rather than teaching the courses they are scheduled to teach, college professors are forced to offer a remedial review of information that should have been mastered in high school. Many, if not most, high school graduates are functionally illiterate, lacking the basic reading and writing skills we took for granted in the rec…

I know the US system has its issues relative to other places, but I have never seen research showing that people are in fact worse going out.

In fact, I feel like I've seen a study showing that the "new math" teaching methodologies that get parents so mad nowadays end up with kids being better at math...

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#98

Post by dragandj »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #95
aphextron wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates high." No. You are completely missing the point here. Graduation requirements have not changed. Students still have to pass the same amount of classes. What this will do is allow students to have a shot at taking actual credit…

No, you are missing the point. For many years now, admissions standards have been so low that rather than teaching the courses they are scheduled to teach, college professors are forced to offer a remedial review of information that should have been mastered in high school. Many, if not most, high school graduates are functionally illiterate, lacking the basic reading and writing skills we took for granted in the rec…

Why would that be surprising? Hungary and Slovak Republic are countries with long traditions of strong education.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#99

Post by fredo699 »

bloaf wrote: post #8

This is part of a long and slow change in the role of higher education. Previously, college was seen as being for people who academically deserved it. College was not for teaching high-school level concepts, it was for teaching advanced concepts to students who had already demonstrated some bona fides. Now, it is seen as an extension of high school; the onus is on the college to mold all comers into more educated and…

>Now, it is seen as an extension of high school; the onus is on the college to mold all comers into more educated and productive citizens, even if that means re-teaching the basics.

As an institution that takes public funds, this is exactly the onus that lands on it. You can't take my tax money and then turn around and tell me I'm not good enough to participate in the public work that I am bankrolling.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#100

Post by rodgerd »

Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

> Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right?

You mean it sarcastically, but you are literally correct. What has "merit" in so-called meritocracies is entirely subjective.

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