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Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

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Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#51

Post by davidreiss »

ilaksh wrote: post #31
davidreiss wrote: post #18

For the life of me I still can't figure out what he wrote that was so offensive. I see people attacking him in general terms, calling him a bigot/sexist/etc, but they never mention anything specific he wrote. Can anyone point to anything specific that is upsetting so many people?

The document is the definition of sexism and a perfect example of why we still need diversity laws and programs. Despite the attempts to provide disclaimers, many of the comments he wrote were explicitly sexist. For example the sections "Personality differences" and "Men's higher drive for status". Sexism means prejudice related to gender. Prejudice means pre-judging a group. For example the belief that women do not…

> The document is the definition of sexism

I would love some examples of your accusation. You say it's the "definition of sexism". So you must have plenty of examples from his writing.

> and a perfect example of why we still need diversity laws and programs.

Yes. The fact the guy got fired for having his own opinions proves that we are in a dire need for diversity of thought and ideas.

> For example the belief that women do not have as high as drive for status can (and previously has been) used as an excuse for promoting men instead of women or a particular man instead of a particular woman.

But that's societal/evolutionary theory proposed by some scientists/thinkers? Also, the belief that women can't compete with men physically is used as an excuse to created women's tennis assocation, WNBA, women's hockey, women's soccer, etc? Is that sexist? There is sexism and there is biological facts/inquiry/etc.

He was just offering a possible explanation for why more men are in leadership roles.

"The greater tendency for men to be interested in having a higher status fits with a long line of biological research dating back to Darwin. It seems men believe that higher status brings the mating opportunities that come with being top dog."

https://phys.org/news/2012-12-women-money-men-status.html

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/12...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/evolution/9005552/Me...

It's almost as if humans were evolutionarily driven to be this way. Is science and discussing scientific topics now bigotry?

If that's why people are upset and if that's why he got fired, then google is going to lose and he's going to be wealthy.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#52

Post by didgeoridoo »

throwerway wrote: post #46

> Men and woman ARE equal. I used to believe so, until I discovered there were thousands of studies suggesting that statistically, men and women aren't equal. Each one of these points is backed up by dozens of statistical studies. Are there statistical differences between males and females in height? Yes Are there statistical differences between males and females in athletic ability? Yes Are there statistical differe…

You're not parsing the difference between "equality" and "identicality".

Equality is about the rights one has, and how one should be treated as an individual — equality before the law, and before society. We strive for a society where men and woman are equal, blacks and whites are equal, straights and gays are equal.

Universal equality, however, does NOT require us to believe that people are identical in personality, in intelligence, or in any of the other dimensions you've listed above. We don't even have to believe that specific groups, taken together, are identical to all other groups in mean, median, and standard deviation on these attributes.

People can be EQUAL without being THE SAME.

Edit: really bummed I missed the opportunity to make a JavaScript joke about == vs ===.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#53

Post by joliv »

I'm willing to bet Damore would win his case with the NLRB if not for the new Trump members that will be on the board by the time he gets there. Eager to see some deal with their simultaneous passion for speech freedoms and disdain for the only remedy here—strengthening labor protections.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#54

Post by davidreiss »

true_tuna wrote: post #49

They fired him for making women and minorities at google feel unwelcome due to their gender and ethnicity respectively. That's a violation of the company code of conduct and kind of a dick move. People who work hard to become experts in their fields should not have to continually prove that they are in fact good enough and smart enough for the positions they have earned.

> They fired him for making women and minorities at google feel unwelcome due to their gender and ethnicity respectively.

What did he say that made women feel unwelcome? What did he say about minorities?

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#55

Post by throwerway »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #52
throwerway wrote: post #46

> Men and woman ARE equal. I used to believe so, until I discovered there were thousands of studies suggesting that statistically, men and women aren't equal. Each one of these points is backed up by dozens of statistical studies. Are there statistical differences between males and females in height? Yes Are there statistical differences between males and females in athletic ability? Yes Are there statistical differe…

You're not parsing the difference between "equality" and "identicality". Equality is about the rights one has, and how one should be treated as an individual — equality before the law, and before society. We strive for a society where men and woman are equal, blacks and whites are equal, straights and gays are equal. Universal equality, however, does NOT require us to believe that people are identical in personality,…

Edit: New accounts cannot reply so I rewrote my comment

I'm talking about equality in terms of attributes. The distribution of traits in males and the distribution of traits in females, are not equal. So I will not say males and females are equal. They do qualify as equivalent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_relation

I believe people should be treated as individuals, if you take two distinct persons A and B, I don't believe they are equal. The only person equal to person A is person A. On this vein, you can't say Group A is equal to Group B, unless Group A and B are the same group.

You can apply equivalence relations to groups, which is basically a lower threshold for equality.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#56

Post by dragonwriter »

true_tuna wrote: post #49

They fired him for making women and minorities at google feel unwelcome due to their gender and ethnicity respectively. That's a violation of the company code of conduct and kind of a dick move. People who work hard to become experts in their fields should not have to continually prove that they are in fact good enough and smart enough for the positions they have earned.

> They fired him for making women and minorities at google feel unwelcome due to their gender and ethnicity respectively. That's a violation of the company code of conduct and kind of a dick move

And also creates a situation which potentially exposes the company to legal liability under state and federal laws if not addressed, independent of company policy; hostile work environment based on sex or race is itself employment discrimination under the law.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#57

Post by flukus »

thephyber wrote: post #17
abc_lisper wrote: post #10

What escapes this whole shebang is the fact that his post went Viral inside google. Would he have been fired if it didn't?

Perhaps not. But I don't see the fact that he wrote it as the proximal cause for his firing. I suspect it's the fact that his PR event caused by the memo makes it harder for the company to hire women and to draw a clear distinction between Google company culture and, say, Uber company culture.

> I suspect it's the fact that his PR event caused by the memo

In which case they should be firing the people that leaked it outside google. At the moment it seems as though they are rewarding the leakers (who I suspect disagreed with the memo) by giving them what they want.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#58

Post by davidreiss »

nikdaheratik wrote: post #24
davidreiss wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're conflating a political movement with a company doing PR damage control. Google management didn't "call him names". Google is heavily invested in the political movement. Lets not pretend google is an objective observer in this. > They are actively trying to hire the best engineers in the world and this memo just put a dent in their hiring process for 50% of their potential hiring candidates. Can you point to…

>Google is heavily invested in the political movement. What "political movement" did the guy they fired represent? "All men are created equal" is a political statement, "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" is a political statement, "Half the world's population is unsuitable for technical work because of their gender" is bigoted nonsense. That he tried to use discredited pseudo-science to back up his statement doesn't make…

> What "political movement" did the guy they fired represent?

Extreme liberalism. The same condition sadly afflicting much of media.

> "Half the world's population is unsuitable for technical work because of their gender" is bigoted nonsense.

Where did he say that? You are quoting it as if he wrote it, so please point out where he wrote those exact words. The fact you are making things up and misattributing it to him is rather disturbing.

>Bottom line: the core thesis of the "manifesto" was on par with eugenics, anti-vaxxer propaganda, or anti-climate FUD

So point it out.

You make outlandish claims but provide no specifics. It's almost as if you are making things up to further your agenda.

Also, feminists claim half the world's population is not fit enough to compete with men in baseball, football, soccer, hockey, tennis, etc and therefore need their own leagues/tournaments. Are these feminists sexists?

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#59

Post by didgeoridoo »

throwerway wrote: post #55
didgeoridoo wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not parsing the difference between "equality" and "identicality". Equality is about the rights one has, and how one should be treated as an individual — equality before the law, and before society. We strive for a society where men and woman are equal, blacks and whites are equal, straights and gays are equal. Universal equality, however, does NOT require us to believe that people are identical in personality,…

Edit: New accounts cannot reply so I rewrote my comment I'm talking about equality in terms of attributes. The distribution of traits in males and the distribution of traits in females, are not equal. So I will not say males and females are equal. They do qualify as equivalent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_relation I believe people should be treated as individuals, if you take two distinct persons A and B…

I'm not sure where "equivalent" came from, and haven't really heard it used in this context before. What do you mean by that?

Anyway, I think you've got it backwards. "Equivalent" suggests that men and women are functionally interchangeable, which neither of us believes. "Equal", on the other hand, has a long history of being used to carry social and political meaning.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#60

Post by williamle8300 »

maxscam wrote: post #40
williamle8300 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea but Google isn't firing him for "lack of cultural fit." They're firing him because they don't like it. Big difference.

Please extrapolate what is the differerence. I dont see it

Read the Sundar's letter. They're saying James was wrong, not that he not that James didn't fit the culture.
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