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Why some of the best developers keep quitting

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Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#61

Post by spraak »

fweespeech wrote: post #31
spraak wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. I work for a company based in the UK, which seems to have much lower pay than the US. I am paid the same as other senior developers at the company, yet my salary by comparison to US standards is quite low ($70k and no benefits since I'm technically a contractor). Otherwise the company is really amazing, so I'm torn.

Expecting countries to match salaries an ocean apart is...unwise. Countries have very different economic situations.

I understand that, but it still hurts.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#62

Post by spraak »

orf wrote: post #39
spraak wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. I work for a company based in the UK, which seems to have much lower pay than the US. I am paid the same as other senior developers at the company, yet my salary by comparison to US standards is quite low ($70k and no benefits since I'm technically a contractor). Otherwise the company is really amazing, so I'm torn.

Do you work in London or Cambridge? If so, that's a pretty low salary for a senior developer. In my experience that's mid level range, you're looking at more 70+k ($90k) for senior. That's excluding finance of course, where salaries are astronomical.

Sorry, I'm actually in the US. I'm surprised to hear that that's a low salary for the UK, as well.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#63

Post by dlwdlw »

anonacct37 wrote: post #47

This is wrong wrong wrong. Here's why most developers keep quitting: it's because for them the grass really is always greener on the other side. Usually by about 20%. I can only assume that right now the best developers are vastly underpaid relative to their worth. Why? Because it turns out every time they get annoyed with their current company they can send out some feelers and get a 20% raise. Most people can't do…

I have a theory that most people in the US are overpaid. However the overpayment is a strategy by management so that they themselves can be even more overpaid. This can be afforded because the overpaid people are locked into middle class life scripts driving up cost of living (houses) so that they are still reliant on the jobs. It's potential "fuck u" money but isn't because of the attractive force of a domain and resistance to change. (ironically the same arguments some techies deride locals for for not moving some place cheaper)

There is excessive profit taking at all levels including the IC level, however market dynamics actually create greater and greater differences in wealth despite the trickle down.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#64

Post by fweespeech »

scottLobster wrote: post #32
fweespeech wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest (at least in my experience) if you are really worth $X as a developer, you can generally get your current employer to give you $X if you are proactive about it. Quitting generally has more to do with: A) "You (the employer) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Ask What’s Wrong" B) "You (the employee) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Convey What's Wrong" Leaving my last job, I told them what I wanted 1-2…

How would that work? For the company to make a profit, employees by definition have to produce more value than they consume.

> How would that work? For the company to make a profit, employees by definition have to produce more value than they consume.

Most people aren't primarily motivated by money once they are making a full salary as a developer.

PTO, Work/Life Balance, and Geography are more relevant to my life choices than how much I'm paid (to a point, certain areas I've noticed don't pay enough).

https://ycharts.com/companies/GOOG/profit_margin

Alphabet was running a 13.55% margin for its latest quarter.

https://ycharts.com/companies/WMT/profit_margin

Walmart was at a 2.59% profit margin for its latest quarter.

Which of these companies do you think are providing better PTO, Work/Life Balance, etc.?

The reality is intangibles mean more to developers than another 10% salary bump once they are making $150k.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#65

Post by OtterCoder »

kthejoker2 wrote: post #40
OtterCoder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate this approach to management. Why should I be "shielded" from a better opportunity? That only protects my manager, and gives me no valuable protection.

Translation: "I didn't read the link, here's a non sequitur." The "shield" is just your day-to-day (sometimes minute-to-minute) SELF-evaluation of your current job satisfaction and willingness to leave. It has nothing to do with you being shielded from anything by anyone else.

I did, in fact, read the link, and I'm reacting to the condescending language used throughout. The unspoken attitude in the article is that the employee is a dirty traitor and a fool for wanting to move on. 'Shields down' is a telling choice of words because the manager feels that the employee is protected by being his. It's a patronizing, parental sort of attitude towards employees that irks me to no end.

To pull another quote:

  "If I’m sitting here talking with you it means two things: I don’t want you to leave and, to the best of my knowledge, you didn’t want to leave either but here you are leaving."
Here he's either assuming he can read the minds of his employees, or that his employees should share every dissatisfaction and stray thought with him. Hyperbole, perhaps, but not by much. I don't want a nosy dad for a boss.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#66

Post by [deleted] »

fweespeech wrote: post #31
spraak wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. I work for a company based in the UK, which seems to have much lower pay than the US. I am paid the same as other senior developers at the company, yet my salary by comparison to US standards is quite low ($70k and no benefits since I'm technically a contractor). Otherwise the company is really amazing, so I'm torn.

Expecting countries to match salaries an ocean apart is...unwise. Countries have very different economic situations.

[deleted]

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#67

Post by Consultant32452 »

spraak wrote: post #61
fweespeech wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expecting countries to match salaries an ocean apart is...unwise. Countries have very different economic situations.

I understand that, but it still hurts.

Stop comparing your salary to the US and start comparing it to India. You can be certain that's what your employer is comparing it to. And as soon as they can get the the same quality of work out of India you'll get the boot.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#68

Post by durgiston »

anonacct37 wrote: post #47

This is wrong wrong wrong. Here's why most developers keep quitting: it's because for them the grass really is always greener on the other side. Usually by about 20%. I can only assume that right now the best developers are vastly underpaid relative to their worth. Why? Because it turns out every time they get annoyed with their current company they can send out some feelers and get a 20% raise. Most people can't do…

I think this is inertia from the housing bubble in 2008. After that, companies didn't have a retention problem with employees because everyone was terrified of not having a job for even a brief time. But since then, the economy has recovered (at least for this fairly high class) and also the ACA means that (at least for now...) you aren't as dependent on your job as you used to be. So you can afford to look around, and all the employers have the money to pay you what you are worth. They just don't remember that they have to do it to their existing employees too. They have forgotten to pay for retention, and I suspect that barring a new crisis (which I admit is more likely now) employers will start to realize again that retention is cheaper than searching for and training new employees

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#69

Post by [deleted] »

spraak wrote: post #62
orf wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you work in London or Cambridge? If so, that's a pretty low salary for a senior developer. In my experience that's mid level range, you're looking at more 70+k ($90k) for senior. That's excluding finance of course, where salaries are astronomical.

Sorry, I'm actually in the US. I'm surprised to hear that that's a low salary for the UK, as well.

[deleted]

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#70

Post by durgiston »

BurningFrog wrote: post #25
malux85 wrote: post #4

Also - let the developers choose the work. We have a big todo list on the wall, and when a developer needs work, they can choose from the list. If a developer comes to me with a new idea, and it sounds viable, then I give them a bonus based on how well it executes. Everyone is incentivised and motivated to come up with new exciting projects. Smart developers want to create, so set them free! Autonomy, mastery, purpos…

How do you handle boring unglamorous but important tasks?

You pay your employees enough that they stay and do it. Ultimately, this is the only recognition that matters.
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