Why some of the best developers keep quitting • Hacker News Board

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#31

Post by fweespeech » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:02 PM UTC

spraak wrote: post #26

fweespeech wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest (at least in my experience) if you are really worth $X as a developer, you can generally get your current employer to give you $X if you are proactive about it. Quitting generally has more to do with: A) "You (the employer) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Ask What’s Wrong" B) "You (the employee) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Convey What's Wrong" Leaving my last job, I told them what I wanted 1-2…

I dunno. I work for a company based in the UK, which seems to have much lower pay than the US. I am paid the same as other senior developers at the company, yet my salary by comparison to US standards is quite low ($70k and no benefits since I'm technically a contractor). Otherwise the company is really amazing, so I'm torn.

Expecting countries to match salaries an ocean apart is...unwise. Countries have very different economic situations.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#32

Post by scottLobster » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:05 PM UTC

fweespeech wrote: post #6

rarec wrote: post #3

It's rare to also see these articles point out the immense pay discrepancy that can occur. Companies seem to want loyalty but they don't want to give it. This leads to the merc approach of just selling to the highest bidder.

To be honest (at least in my experience) if you are really worth $X as a developer, you can generally get your current employer to give you $X if you are proactive about it. Quitting generally has more to do with: A) "You (the employer) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Ask What’s Wrong" B) "You (the employee) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Convey What's Wrong" Leaving my last job, I told them what I wanted 1-2…

How would that work? For the company to make a profit, employees by definition have to produce more value than they consume.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#33

Post by mgkimsal » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:11 PM UTC

spraak wrote: post #26

fweespeech wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest (at least in my experience) if you are really worth $X as a developer, you can generally get your current employer to give you $X if you are proactive about it. Quitting generally has more to do with: A) "You (the employer) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Ask What’s Wrong" B) "You (the employee) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Convey What's Wrong" Leaving my last job, I told them what I wanted 1-2…

I dunno. I work for a company based in the UK, which seems to have much lower pay than the US. I am paid the same as other senior developers at the company, yet my salary by comparison to US standards is quite low ($70k and no benefits since I'm technically a contractor). Otherwise the company is really amazing, so I'm torn.

If you are actually in the UK, you have some amazing benefits that US-based folks don't get in the form of healthcare. I know, yes, technically, you're paying for it in taxes, but it's there for you all the time, regardless of your employment status or ability to pay for an insurance policy.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#34

Post by ethbro » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:14 PM UTC

vvanders wrote: post #27

BurningFrog wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you handle boring unglamorous but important tasks?

Enthusiastic(and authentic) recognition. Everyone knows those tasks suck but you can still use it as an opportunity to re-enforce how critical they can be and give a big kudos for whoever rolled up their sleeves and dived in. Another nice upside of this approach is it helps re-enforce a culture of doing the right thing because we ship and don't just write code.

I think group recognition works excellently. Especially in terms of ensuring folks who didn't choose the ugly tasks recognize that they won't have to do them now thanks to John / Jane.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#35

Post by OtterCoder » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:26 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #20

acconrad wrote: post #7

None of these 4 reasons (TD;LR: you waited until the exit interview, you assume mentors want to manage, you assume the natural ascension of developers is management and not higher-level IC roles, you aren't supporting them and their career) are why they quit. People quit because the modern, zero-loyalty, everyone-for-hire company does not provide a long term strategy for providing intrinsic motivation (autonomy, mast…

People quit because the modern, zero-loyalty, everyone-for-hire company does not provide a long term strategy for providing intrinsic motivation (autonomy, mastery, purpose) Rands refers to this as your "shields down" moment. http://randsinrepose.com/archives/shields-down/

I hate this approach to management. Why should I be "shielded" from a better opportunity? That only protects my manager, and gives me no valuable protection.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#36

Post by JetSpiegel » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #30

eropple wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, historically, where I was at. Consistently delivering high-quality stuff that makes my fellow devs able to do their jobs faster and better, and while in the top quartile of salaries, it wasn't remotely reflective of the value being generated. That's why I went into consulting in the first place.

Running your own (successful) business is always going to net you more money than being salaried. It's the payoff for taking the risk. A company pays a salary based on how hard it is to replace you, not your value generation, whereas your own company nets you $all_the_things.

The risk is $all_the_things <= 0, which is pretty common.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#37

Post by thomk » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

“the number-one reason technical people quit is because they don’t have the option to advance without going into management.” Then it goes on to explain that you should put them into management.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#38

Post by gnud » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #20

acconrad wrote: post #7

None of these 4 reasons (TD;LR: you waited until the exit interview, you assume mentors want to manage, you assume the natural ascension of developers is management and not higher-level IC roles, you aren't supporting them and their career) are why they quit. People quit because the modern, zero-loyalty, everyone-for-hire company does not provide a long term strategy for providing intrinsic motivation (autonomy, mast…

People quit because the modern, zero-loyalty, everyone-for-hire company does not provide a long term strategy for providing intrinsic motivation (autonomy, mastery, purpose) Rands refers to this as your "shields down" moment. http://randsinrepose.com/archives/shields-down/

That was an interesting article, but I really didn't like the phrase 'shields down'. It sort of implies that the default state, that you should protect, is keeping your current job.

I think the default state should be you being happy, fullfilled and well compensated in your job. And if you take a better offer somewhere else, it's not because you 'dropped your shield', it's because you're looking out for your own interests.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#39

Post by orf » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:39 PM UTC

spraak wrote: post #26

fweespeech wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest (at least in my experience) if you are really worth $X as a developer, you can generally get your current employer to give you $X if you are proactive about it. Quitting generally has more to do with: A) "You (the employer) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Ask What’s Wrong" B) "You (the employee) Waited Until The Exit Interview To Convey What's Wrong" Leaving my last job, I told them what I wanted 1-2…

I dunno. I work for a company based in the UK, which seems to have much lower pay than the US. I am paid the same as other senior developers at the company, yet my salary by comparison to US standards is quite low ($70k and no benefits since I'm technically a contractor). Otherwise the company is really amazing, so I'm torn.

Do you work in London or Cambridge? If so, that's a pretty low salary for a senior developer. In my experience that's mid level range, you're looking at more 70+k ($90k) for senior. That's excluding finance of course, where salaries are astronomical.

Re: Why some of the best developers keep quitting

#40

Post by kthejoker2 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:42 PM UTC

OtterCoder wrote: post #35

joezydeco wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People quit because the modern, zero-loyalty, everyone-for-hire company does not provide a long term strategy for providing intrinsic motivation (autonomy, mastery, purpose) Rands refers to this as your "shields down" moment. http://randsinrepose.com/archives/shields-down/

I hate this approach to management. Why should I be "shielded" from a better opportunity? That only protects my manager, and gives me no valuable protection.

Translation: "I didn't read the link, here's a non sequitur."

The "shield" is just your day-to-day (sometimes minute-to-minute) SELF-evaluation of your current job satisfaction and willingness to leave. It has nothing to do with you being shielded from anything by anyone else.