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Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

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Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#221

Post by rifung »

oskbor wrote: post #131
rifung wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand your point so please correct me if I misunderstand, but the person wasn't fired for having a different opinion. He was fired for saying things which were deeply hurtful for a large number of employees.

Have you even read his text? Please quote the "deeply hurtful" passages

I have but I can't quote anything because I wasn't offended.

Other people were clearly hurt by it though and I don't believe I'm in a position where I should tell other people what they should or shouldn't feel.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#222

Post by jshevek »

kafkaesq wrote: post #73
naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast ... Maybe some people are calling for stuff like that. But that's not what Google's doing to him. Google's just saying: "You can't do that here ."

The terrible behaviors described by the parent post, are a part of the culture which drive so many individuals to demand that he be fired.

Consider the people within Google who declare their unwillingness to work with the person that believes in science and in treating people like individuals.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#223

Post by rbanffy »

GhotiFish wrote: post #153
kevinburke wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A right to free speech doesn't mean you are also free from any consequences for that speech.. ? The Constitution allows you to say whatever you want but your employer's also free to fire you for saying it. As an example, if you say racist things to a customer, your employer should be able to fire you. I have heard people say he should get fired, but I haven't heard anyone saying he should be "expelled from society" o…

To be blunt, it kinda does. Before, the major actor that could issue genuine consequences for speech was the state. The word "Consequences" in the statement "freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences", means a punch to the face or a stern shaming from townsfolk. You got on with it, kept doing your job, continued to live your life. When the state objected to your speech, it would end your life, it woul…

Before, he'd have said it among his friends, who would dismiss it and forget his opinions the following morning.

He published his opinion, that Google's efforts that enabled thousands of his female peers to pursue careers there, are misguided and harmful, that some of his female coworkers are biologically unsuited to their jobs. He did it to himself.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#224

Post by jshevek »

slg wrote: post #77
naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

I would argue it is the opposite of authoritarian, it is mob rule. No one person or centralized authority deemed this person's actions as unacceptable. It was the majority of the community as a whole that deemed his actions as unacceptable. That is certainly a scary thing to see in action, but I think it is a different thing entirely than an authoritarian regime.

True, but this mob rule rests on the authoritarian mindset of the individuals, and their ability to coerce centralized authorities to use/abuse their power.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#225

Post by rbanffy »

slg wrote: post #154
amyjess wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call that society's natural immune system.

I like that analogy. The immune system is generally good, but it can do a lot of damage if any number of things go wrong. In the grand scheme of things, being intolerant towards intolerance is certainly on the positive side, but it is still scary seeing the vitriol directed towards whoever is the current target of our internet hate.

> but it can do a lot of damage if any number of things go wrong.

You can argue the current anti-intellectual attitude of a large part of the population is a immune reaction to the political power intellectuals had when their opinion was sought by politicians.

You can also argue white supremacism is an immune reaction to what some white populations incorrectly perceive as a threat to their historic prosperity.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#226

Post by jshevek »

rifung wrote: post #221
oskbor wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you even read his text? Please quote the "deeply hurtful" passages

I have but I can't quote anything because I wasn't offended. Other people were clearly hurt by it though and I don't believe I'm in a position where I should tell other people what they should or shouldn't feel.

We are all responsible for evaluating the reasonableness of claims of being hurt by someone. Otherwise dishonest or mentally unwell people hold us all hostage to their arbitrary claims.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#227

Post by nowo »

brighteyes wrote: post #159
amyjess wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were to tell multiple co-workers to their face that they are inferior to me, I would be fired. This guy told a very large amount of his co-workers that they're inferior to him, and he posted it all over the Internet for everyone to see. You'd be hard pressed to find a company where leveling personal attacks against your co-workers isn't a fireable offense. Freedom of speech isn't the same thing as freedom from t…

> This guy told a very large amount of his co-workers that they're inferior to him That would be very disturbing, but that's not what's written in the document. Saying that there are average differences between groups, and that therefore people should be treated as individuals, is not at all like saying that all individuals in one group are inferior to another.

Everyone is saying that they are open to discuss this, but as soon as someone says what they think about the paper they are met with dismissal. People interpret his large focus on the biological traits of women, by presenting those traits as the primary cause of the gender gap and without showing causality between those traits and the gender gap as disrespectful. Because it suggests that women are primarily at fault. That he inserted a few disclaimers and tries to avoid responsibility by saying things like "possible" doesn't really make things better but further the feeling that he didn't really care to what degree it was true.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#228

Post by jshevek »

sidlls wrote: post #99
leereeves wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unsupported Did you only read the Gizmodo version that removed all the references? Here's a copy with the references: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...

Those references are actually the opposite of helpful to his case. And, in fact, as a biologist he ought to know better than to apply the generalizations he refers to to specific populations or individuals.

He explicitly didn't apply the generalizations in this way. This is a lie invented by a half dozen or more media outlets.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#229

Post by WalterSear »

MBCook wrote: post #208
WalterSear wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His previous behaviour is as irrelevant as the content of his post: he was given an expectation of safety to express his opinion and that trust was abused by multiple parties.

Is it? If he has a pattern of making statements deemed by HR demeaning to women (or whatever the problem was) as was told "don't keep doing that or else you're fired" this could easily be seen as violating that agreement.

Or maybe he was wearing a slutty dress.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#230

Post by nowo »

ithilglin909 wrote: post #52

Here, here. I’m a software engineer who happens to be a woman. Mr. Damore's piece didn’t offend me at all. There were parts I agreed with and parts I didn’t agree with. I’m more bothered by Google’s response(s) which seemed to reveal an incredible lack of critical reading ability, and far more disturbed by the levels of harshly enforced group-think that seem to increasingly dominate supposedly intelligent circles.

It's pointless to claim "lack of critical reading ability" without presenting an argument, since anyone with critical reading ability would have to dismiss that statement as unsupported.
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