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Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

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Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#141

Post by protomyth »

WalterSear wrote: post #78
dopamean wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another possibility. This guy could have been rather obnoxious about his views in the past and had been repeatedly warned. Then he wrote a memo that appeared to be professional but espoused the same views and was finally fired for it.

From what I have been told, he posted this to an internal list specifically created to provide a place for frank, open discussion of contentious, diversity related topics.

As Netscape discovered[1], there is no such thing as an internal list or e-mail[2]. People would be well advised not to believe in such things even if they are presented as such.

1) https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0O3ZRp... (cache version)

2) http://lilly.tumblr.com/post/11230723028/steve-jobs

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#142

Post by WalterSear »

MBCook wrote: post #104
WalterSear wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I have been told, he posted this to an internal list specifically created to provide a place for frank, open discussion of contentious, diversity related topics.

That matches what I've heard, but we don't know what his behavior was like in the office. I think GP's point is that this may have just been (one hell of a) final straw.

His previous behaviour is as irrelevant as the content of his post: he was given an expectation of safety to express his opinion and that trust was abused by multiple parties.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#144

Post by joelrunyon »

influx wrote: post #67
kevinburke wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A right to free speech doesn't mean you are also free from any consequences for that speech.. ? The Constitution allows you to say whatever you want but your employer's also free to fire you for saying it. As an example, if you say racist things to a customer, your employer should be able to fire you. I have heard people say he should get fired, but I haven't heard anyone saying he should be "expelled from society" o…

Curious if you feel Colin Kaepernick should have been fired and blacklisted for supporting Black Lives Matter? After all, it was only a consequence of free speech from his employers.

Colin wasn't fired.

He opted out of his contract - making himself a free agent.

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Colin-Kaepernick-Opts-Ou...

This is like quitting your job and complaining you don't have a job.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#145

Post by habitue »

runako wrote: post #95
eco wrote: post #19

> Media outlets like TechCrunch, Gizmodo and Motherboard jumped on board to declare the memo an “Anti-Diversity Manifesto.” It appears that the ideological echo chamber extends beyond Google’s campus. As I look up and see this article flagged on HN (since unflagged). The points and ideas from his memo may be wrong or they may be right (or anywhere in between) but more important than this incident has been the reactio…

> I don't understand the attempts at shutting down conversation about it To try to shed a little light on this phenomenon, the "it" you refer to expands to "why women and minorities may be biologically less qualified for this job, and those that are here as our teammates are illegitimate in some way." Using the expansion in your paragraph: ===== I don't understand the attempts at shutting down conversation about why…

> the "it" you refer to expands to "why women and minorities may be biologically less qualified for this job, and those that are here are illegitimate in some way."

Accepting your characterization here for the sake of argument: if his claims are so laughably ridiculous as to be easily refutable, people should just have pointed to studies refuting it (of which there are plenty) and gone about their day. When you can't bring up a topic in a respectful way without being shouted down, it's a bad situation.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#146

Post by MBCook »

skylark wrote: post #24

I don't have strong feelings about the original memo, but the media coverage has been an absolute circus. Google's hand was forced because of the negative PR storm that happened, not because it systematically suppresses the voices of its employees. > This algorithm is tuned by an internal team of evaluators. If the company silences dissent within its own ranks, why should we trust it to manage our access to informati…

I agree with you that given the level of coverage I don't know how Google could NOT do something. It's becoming a huge distraction and to let it continue on for a few weeks seems like it would be even worse.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#147

Post by gobugat »

IMTDb wrote: post #114
gobugat wrote: post #7

> "Companies don’t have viewpoints." They do. Not reacting would have been an endorsement. Many would want to think that these issues are apolitical, or scientific, or anything "neutral". They are not. Make no mistake. This is a fight. A struggle between two visions of the world, maybe more. Such conflicts are not won over peaceful arguments. Sooner or later, one must take a stand, which is exactly what Google execut…

> Sooner or later, one must take a stand, which is exactly what Google executives just did. Exactly but then in the statement, don't pretend people should have the ability to speak their mind freely. By firing the guy they basically closed that door entirely, they choose to inflict the maximum penalty they legally could on a guy that wrote an internal memo. Google executives basically just said: "Anyone expressing an…

> "You may agree with the manifesto author or not, but his thought were articulate. He provided evidence for his theories and at no point was he needlessly insulting to anyone. "

No, no, and no. Asserting that half of humanity is incapable of taking on pressure and responsibility is insulting, and suggesting that his rant was articulate or evidenced shows a serious lack of basic humanity. Strong words, but as I said, this is not a TV debate. This is a struggle. We won't convince each other here.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#148

Post by gjulianm »

nxsynonym wrote: post #87
gobugat wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is an "intellectual debate" for you: hairdressers are a danger to society and should be exterminated. Why don't you want to have it? Why censoring a potentially valid viewpoint?

I'm not following. I will gladly debate this with you. Don't assume I don't want to engage, or that I would attempt to censor your view.

The point I think the parent is trying to make is that some times debating certain ideas is validating them a little bit. It's as if someone asked me to jump off a bridge: discussing whether he should jump or not would be like saying "there is some possibility that you convince me and I jump off the bridge".

Indeed, you should enter a debate with the idea that the other might convince you, right? If you are not going to change it it's not a debate.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#149

Post by tracker1 »

Latty wrote: post #113
tracker1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... nothing to debate, no points of contention, nothing to see here... it's how I see it, and if you don't agree, I'll shut you down. Sounds open to new ideas and diverse opinions to me.

I keep seeing this kind of thing get said, but I'm not sure what the point is - are people really expecting people who espouse diversity to literally accept any opinion? Am I meant to work alongside a person who has literally said he wants me to die, completely seriously? So at some point, there is a line - I feel the more interesting discussion is why you feel this isn't beyond the line - presumably it comes down to…

The issue is that time and time again the reaction to dissenting opinion isn't to discuss the merit of such opinion but to shut down the conversation and drown it out. Also, I haven't seen the original memo, my understanding is that it wasn't intended as a manifesto. Beyond this, I don't know that it called for anyone to die.

Maybe you can point out some things in the memo that you feel warrants someone's ability to make a living be taken away.

---

Edit: I would expect for people who preach in the name of diversity to be more open to criticism and opinions that don't match their own. I've said of myself repeatedly that I'd much rather have more politicians I can respect than those that I agree with. It's somewhat hypocritical of someone to espouse diversity, while simultaneously shutting out differing opinions.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#150

Post by eco »

pseudalopex wrote: post #137
eco wrote: post #19

> Media outlets like TechCrunch, Gizmodo and Motherboard jumped on board to declare the memo an “Anti-Diversity Manifesto.” It appears that the ideological echo chamber extends beyond Google’s campus. As I look up and see this article flagged on HN (since unflagged). The points and ideas from his memo may be wrong or they may be right (or anywhere in between) but more important than this incident has been the reactio…

There have been several very active threads about this incident, the conversation has been mostly people talking past each other, the headline is inflammatory, and the article adds nothing new to the discussion.

If people want to talk about it, let them talk about it. If you don't want to read them talking about it, don't read them talking about it. It's weird hearing anyone claim we need less discussion and communication about anything. An unproductive conversation won't hurt anyone. If anything it'll teach everyone we are further apart on an issue than anyone thought and that maybe we need to step back and think about the issue more broadly.
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