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Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

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Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these are discussed in the first paragraphs of the WP article he referenced Where? It doesn't say anything about one sex's aptitude for leading there.

So you are effectively nitpicking words, single words , present or not in a cited source out of a 10 page reasonable critique of existing policy? And for what? To justify a guy getting fired? For real?

Saying "women have a harder time leading" is a pretty bold, striking statement, and one that needs some damn solid evidence if you're going to say it. To back it up just by saying "women are less assertive" is not remotely evidence of that statement.

And it is a statement, whether or not it's introduced as a single word. To claim that this is "nitpicking a single word" is like saying that an article that includes the line "Scandinavians are taller, stupider, and blonder than other Europeans" is problematic only if we "nitpick a single word."

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#312
The whole "across cultures" thing in that 1 (importantly, one) study is easily explained by a couple things:

- men grow more muscle faster and that used to be important

- childbirth used to be (and in many places still is) very dangerous for women

Consequently most societies defined gender roles in similar ways, leading to similar effects across them.

Or you can go even simpler and say they're more neurotic because their odds of being raped by a man are terrifyingly high. Or they get paid less than men and charged more for things like health care, car loans and mortgages so they carry a higher financial stress burden. Or their health plans are inadequate and they're worried about what will happen if that matters. Or they're being harassed in the workplace.

Or you can dispute the premise entirely and say the standard for "neuroticism" was based on a culture created and still dominated by men.

---

A lot of people are saying things like, "he didn't really write anything that was sexist or misogynistic", but women and people of color are far too familiar with fucked up policies justified by "biological differences". There are real, deep, life and death social problems right now caused by misogyny and they all stem from the fundamental idea that women have their role and men have theirs.

What does this lead to? Health care policies that cost women more and don't even meet all their needs. Health care systems that service women less effectively than men (stroke symptoms are often missed in women, childbirth mortality rates in less progressive parts of the US, etc.), jobs that pay women less than men, laws that ignore or oppress women, etc. etc. etc. etc. And every time, it's justified with "women are just biologically different than men".

Why can't you express such an opinion in the workplace? Because that opinion is responsible for the oppression of billions of women throughout the entire history of humanity. It's not at all like arguing for wind over solar, or honestly other political debates over private vs. public health care or whatever. When you're talking about social issues, you're talking about systems that have oppressed, brutalized and murdered unbelievable numbers of people, and continue to oppress people that you work with and see each and every day. They're not idle thought experiments or a curious hobbies. Treat them with the sensitivity they deserve.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say "the diversity program is harmful and should be stopped" without advancing gender stereotypes (which is what the guy did in his memo). All you need to do is back up that "it's harmful" with evidence. It's pretty damn simple.

He had sources from here to the moon. Have you actually read the memo you are criticizing?

I did read it, where did he outline the failures of the existing diversity program that wasn't also a lie? For instance, a lowered standard for interviews isn't a thing.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's most likely referencing his next two lines down, "As part of Google's mandatory diversity training, one is presented with Google's internal research claiming that unconscious bias is real and measurable, and that diversity hiring yields both better individual and group performance. Google has a line which they feel is backed by research..." so he can't post that data publicly as it is Google's private research.…

> It doesn't mean it doesn't exist though, just that we won't get access to it. It may as well be an argument from authority - because that is what it is. One cannot hide behind "but the data show" and then refuse to show the data. That is not how science works and we shouldn't accept it for a second from anyone.

This is also the same argument about the success of the TSA in stopping terrorist attacks. They've stopped them, but refuse to show you the data.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The memo itself was incoherent. Many of its statements made sense for debate, and the author himself pointed out that you can't tell much about any individual from the general data, which I think has not been focused on enough. He seemed to think he was doing everybody a service and that his views were not detrimental to anybody. But the actual choices in how to express the generalities showed really bad judgement an…

> The memo itself was incoherent. That's funny. Compared to the response I've seen against it, it seems extremely coherent, tactfully presented and scientifically sourced. It's an internal memo for crying out loud. Compared to anything I've seen in any company I've worked with, this sets the bar for extreme professionalism.

I have a more detailed comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14957553 but basically since he gives no sense of how much he thinks the biological stuff actually matters, he has made the range of possible interpretations very wide. This carelessness (or intentional vagueness?) is anything but tactful. Tactful is controlling your message to not be so easily misunderstood.

The science is not really in doubt, surely, but the magnitude of the effects in the full context of our lives and history and cultural norms is complicated. And figuring out how to use experimental data to improve policy is hard.

The backlash is not surprising because, though he tried, he failed to be clear about what he means.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#316

I am a black dude from an upper middle class family that went to private school his whole life and I am very, very familiar with how it's possible to have great ethnic diversity but a severe lack of diversity in other areas (and how negatively that can affect things). Because of this I've often wondered how a company or any group of people can include perspectives that many other people find to be morally reprehensib…

It seems that your whole comment doesn't work if you don't mischaracterize the whole situation. Please quote the original racism and/or misogyny. And yes, someone should legally be able to cite, for example, that Asians typically have higher IQs than others - don't you think? Besides, if you quit a huge company like Google because one of your colleagues holds an opinion, then how are you so different from a white who…

> Besides, if you quit a huge company like Google because one of your colleagues holds an opinion...

OP didn't say he would quit because one of his colleagues held a (in his example) racist opinion, but would do so if the company just turned around and said that black employees should just be "more open-minded" to those opinions.

You can separately debate whether the original memo was as bad as OP's racist example, but in the context of OP's example I think he'd be perfectly in his rights to leave if the company was supporting such an opinion.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The memo itself was incoherent. Many of its statements made sense for debate, and the author himself pointed out that you can't tell much about any individual from the general data, which I think has not been focused on enough. He seemed to think he was doing everybody a service and that his views were not detrimental to anybody. But the actual choices in how to express the generalities showed really bad judgement an…

Funny lots of people found it very coherent. https://archive.is/VlNfl

I have a more detailed response about lack of coherence here:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14957553

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#318

I am a black dude from an upper middle class family that went to private school his whole life and I am very, very familiar with how it's possible to have great ethnic diversity but a severe lack of diversity in other areas (and how negatively that can affect things). Because of this I've often wondered how a company or any group of people can include perspectives that many other people find to be morally reprehensib…

Please allow me to honestly engage with you and break this down. You're a black man at Google. There is a study that says that ON AVERAGE across a large population of people, black men are relatively uneducated and relatively underperform on a particular aptitude test. It is a known fact that although the larger population has 50% black people, only 10% of Google employees are black. Now, let's assume that the common…

I think you've made some incorrect assumptions about who I am and what I think about these issues. Maybe I'm wrong but I'll leave a few points so we're on the same page:

I have been involved in the hiring process at more than one tech company and it was apparent that there were far, far fewer women in the pipeline than men. Even if we hired every single person who applied the balance would still lean very heavily toward men. Again, this is just in my personal experience.

I don't believe it is the job tech companies to do extra work to hire more of any underrepresented group in the industry until the problem in the pipeline is addressed.

I think the argument that there is something biological about women that makes them less interested in tech comes from what amounts to pseudoscience at best and that argument shouldn't be validated because it gets in the way of solving the problem with the pipeline.

I have never (and would never) advocated for any group of people to be given "extra marks to pass" in a situation where their ability to do a job is important.

I don't think the author of that memo at Google should have been fired. Though I do understand how from a corporate standpoint they felt that they had to.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the "person interested in equal opportunity would not do..." I didn't do those things. I'm not blind to anything and I think all I did in my comment was ask a pretty simple question that you didn't even attempt to answer.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, women DO have a harder time leading because their assertiveness is perceived significantly worse than similar assertiveness is men. Women aren't the problem in this scenario.

That was my point. You can find sex "differences" but unless you somehow raised men and women separately, you'll be hard pressed to know which ones are innate and which ones are created through outside pressures. Not in all cases, of course, but in terms of behavior.

No I get what you're saying.

I'm saying the way you phrased it puts the onus on women. It's fairer to say, "men are worse employees because they can't handle a women being assertive" because men have the problem, not women.

Re: Note to Google Employees from CEO Sundar Pichai

#320

This is the moment. Google used to be this dream place to work, not anymore. If other companies want to hire good conservative/libertarian engineers, they should motion loud and clear that they will not ostracize employees for having a differing political opinion

The truth is, in most states, you can be fired for holding any opinion your boss doesn't like. Full stop.

But California is not one of those states. See http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection...
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