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New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

nytimes.com

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Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#121

Post by martinald »

zanny wrote: post #90
lasermike026 wrote: post #67

NYC MTA needs billions of dollars to fix the system. NY state must raise taxes on the rich and deploy it too the MTA. The federal must chip in too. The MTA will never make money and this is how it is.

Where does the misguided notion infrastructure should make a profit even come from? Everyone hates on Amtrak for not being a profitable company. When in history has infrastructure ever existed for the sake of the network operators profit? It is always for the sake of profiting those who use it - the infrastructure enables profits, but in the same way sticking profits into medicine cripples the efficiency of the syste…

I do agree with your sentiments entirely but the MTA should be doing much better.

Transport for London (IMO the complete opposite of MTA: on the whole incredibly well run and generally well funded) has went from making an enormous operational loss to near break even in the last 15 years. If the trends hold it is projected to make a >£1bn operational profit per year by 2021.

NB I'm talking about operational expenditure not capital, which is funded from grants from govt, which currently stand at around £3bn per annum. It's possible to see how it could be entirely profit generating in a couple of decades though Inc capex. Assuming everyone doesn't leave due to brexit.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#122

Post by CodeWriter23 »

The worst part about this is the New Yorkers who are fleeing New York City and landing in Hollywood and Silverlake and Echo Park and Eagle Rock. No xenophobia here it's just they're bringing their adjusted economic expectations to LA making the Airbnb inflicted housing crunch seem OK.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#123

Post by brianwawok »

sliverstorm wrote: post #66
Joeri wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any sufficiently complex system will always run in degraded mode, because the individual mtbf rates for distinct elements will compound. Even a stop-the-world overhaul can't fix that, it will reduce the failure rate but it won't get rid of it. The trick to running such a system is to assume it is broken and still figure out ways of providing continuous service.

Case-study, large raid arrays. Last time I worked with one, it was exactly as you say, it was always degraded, and disks were constantly being replaced and arrays were constantly rebuilding.

So you fix the server case by a share nothing design. Put all data on 3 unrelated servers and query the fastest one.

Not sure how you do this with subway tracks...

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#124

Post by nandemo »

rst wrote: post #115
IshKebab wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just do work on it at night like they do on the tube?

New York's subway system runs 24 hours, and many residents rely on late-night/early morning service.

Is that the official reason though? "The service cannot be stopped even for planned maintenance" doesn't sound like a reasonable constraint.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#125

Post by tacostakohashi »

mysterydip wrote: post #71

Is this just a problem with NYC's system, or is this an "elephant in the room" problem with mass transit? If an individual's car breaks down, they can find alternate means to get where they need to go. If everyone were to depend on public transit in the future, how do you handle upgrades? I know the metro in DC will run extra bus routes for some down trains, but I think that's just for certain smaller repairs. It's s…

No, NYC's subway is particularly messed up for unique political reasons.

They don't have these problems in London, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore.. it's not a problem with subways, it is a problem with the MTA.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#126

Post by IIAOPSW »

pavement wrote: post #21

A lot of what affects the NYC subway is the principle of the "Sick System." http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html The system is too essential for a stop-the-world overhaul, but so far gone, that only a stop-the-world overhaul can part the clouds. Without a hard flush of antiquated mission critical infrastructure, millions of turbulent eddies and vortices will ensure that the system is always afflicted by parasi…

I don't agree with your diagnosis for one simple reason: The Carnarsie line (AKA the L train). The L train is unique because it is the only line in the system that doesn't share track with any other line. It is well used but if it shut down for a day (or even a week) the effect on the system wouldn't be so bad. Yet attempts to upgrade the L line have still failed. How do you explain this?

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#127

Post by jdavis703 »

ghaff wrote: post #103
jdavis703 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cities have multiple tools to handle building more infrastructure as density goes up. There's land value capture which is a tax developers (or new occupants) agree to pay on any excess value created by a transit improvement (i.e. chicken before the egg). Then there are development proffers, which requires developers to pay for certain public improvements (i.e. egg before the chicken).

In theory. In practice, as we see, building things like new subway lines take decades. More money certainly helps but build a few skyscrapers of residential housing over the next decade and you might get incremental subway lines to support that in fifty years or so.

Then invest in things like top-end cycling infrastructure. Copenhagen has pretty bad subway infrastructure (at present it's missing some important destinations, like the central station, the M3 and M4 will create a lot of important connections). But the bike infrastructure is top-notch and high capacity. In some regards they can create a very car-lite-city by focusing so much on bicycles.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#128

Post by IIAOPSW »

kposehn wrote: post #48

The biggest reason for these delays I've found over the years it the signaling system and headway spacing. Blocks on a railway system are designed to provide enough space and warning so that trains do not crash into each other. However, when you use line side signals and CTC (Centralized Train Control) to dispatch them, you end up with a set of rules that create spaces for occupancy that can easily be longer than the…

Its worse than you think. I can't find the source right now but IIRC the NYC subway signals still run on the vacuum tube system designed in the early 1900s. At the time it was a massive technical accomplishment. Every small arrangement of vacuum tubes is like a purpose built computer for signaling a specific section of track with speeds and spacing pre-calculated. It successfully put an end to high profile accidents caused by human error. Today you could do the same thing with a micro-controller for almost no money.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#129

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

mulmen wrote: post #106
rb808 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? nytimes recently said its doubled. (thougcomparison to 40s is interesting) > Subway ridership has risen dramatically since the 1990s, when about four million people used the system each day. Now it is nearly six million riders each day — the highest level since the 1940 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subw...

What caused the spike in the 1940s? Wartime fuel rationing?

The spike was in 1946. Whenever this statistic is trotted out I always wonder how they made the trains run back then but MTA can't figure out how to do it today. Their handwaving about narrow doors slowing down passengers doesn't hold water.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#130

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

rst wrote: post #115
IshKebab wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just do work on it at night like they do on the tube?

New York's subway system runs 24 hours, and many residents rely on late-night/early morning service.

There is enough redundancy between portions of the 7th and 8th ave lines to permit partial shutdowns and yet five years in they still can't seem to finish their hurricane repairs.
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