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Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

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Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#161

I've read the doc. At first skim, I thought it was going to be a reasonable "stop the echochamber" style doc, that points out issues with over-loving diversity without thinking about the impact of it, and that decries the strong-left culture at Google that can be alienating to right-leaning employees. But in reality, dude went full /r/TheRedPill and The_Donald on this. I think the best description I heard of the doc…

> bias training is created by people

Yes it is, but I am afraid not by the people you say later on...

> To assume that a privileged engineer would know better than this hardworking team is pretty insulting, I think.

You assume he is privileged?

Psychology knows about cognitive biases not "unconscious biases" which people are "trained" for and being tested on today.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sylvana-storey/unconscious-bia...

Also, for some reason "unconscious biases" test are mostly used to "measure racism and sexism" which is not what these types of tests are originally designed for.

Most of the views in his document are actually supported by psychological research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#162
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di... I'd like to know your opinion about the neuroticism comment.

Hi, thanks for sharing the link! Do you mean this comment: "Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs."? It seems the premise (different average levels of neuroticism between males and females) passes the 10-minutes-of-scanning-google-results-test. But I am not sure that high…

I kind of wonder about the 'high-stress.' Why is programming (or whatever you want to call it) high-stress? I mean there doesn't seem like there would be an inherent reason for it to be high-stress just considering the task. And what about women in jobs like nurses and teachers?

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welp, before the entire document was released I made a long statement below based on what I read, trying to give a reasonable consideration for somebody elses viewpoint, but then I read the document where the reader noncholantly listed the following things as inherent underlying biological differences unique to women, not to be up for debate, as the nondisputable premise for how to address the ideological echo chambe…

What he said is actually correct from Psychological standpoint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits#Ge... The ratios of each trait combined together is what gives you your personality.

Did you read the sentence right after that where they talk about attributing factors, and do not end any of those sentences with "and thats what gives you your peronality"?

"A plausible explanation for this is that acts by women in individualistic, egalitarian countries are more likely to be attributed to their personality, rather than being attributed to ascribed gender roles within collectivist, traditional countries.[109] "

I wonder if anxiety and neuroticism reports by women are results of historically not being equal or having equal opportunities for venues for independence. I Wonder how living in collectivist traditional countries or working in environments with traditionalist roles about what females roles should be would cause a women anxiety if she didnt really fit those roles.

I wonder if its ever wondered if women are just a certain way or rather is anxiety and "neuroticism" reports are due to the world they live in.

I wonder if we could change that world.

nah...its probably just their personality...

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#164
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In France we have a similar issue with the porportion of black football players in the national team. People who complain about that don't understand that they just picked the best players. This gender debate is the same problem. I'd argue that it's not the same problem. I'm not French, but I doubt that there are calls to make the Football team more representative of the population by forcefully limiting the number…

Less than half of babies born in the US in 2012 were white. So while the demographics of the country as a whole haven't reached that point yet, due to a previously heavily white population that's aging but still alive, the demographics of kids born in 1999 and entering Harvard in 2017 are pretty darn close.

IIRC Harvard listed 2.5% of people graduating from that same class of 2021 as being Native American or indigenous people from Pacific Islands (don't remember what they were called precisely) which are actually 0.2% of general population.

I strongly doubt you can make an argument that these people are there on merit alone.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you say that someone is short, it goes to say that you have a comparison model, and that something is tall. Since you bring it up, I will observe that I found New York to be a lot more tolerant in practice. Statistically, the political leanings are pretty comparable, but somehow people are less strident in practice, even during my tenure at a company with an explicit institutional commitment to social justice ca…

1. Telling people are they permitted to meet... is the start of religious tolerance? Was there a thought even slightly in your mind that this was even mildly in tension? Like there will be laws on the books striking people from meeting in a Christian church? Like a political momentum is coming? That churches are allows to operate tax-free, that Churches often operate businesses flagrantly in view of the community but…

> Was there a thought even slightly in your mind that this was even mildly in tension?

Not in any practical sense, but that's a pretty low bar, isn't it? The point is that even your own comments are loaded with views about how

> Churches often operate businesses flagrantly in view of the community but nobody cares (education)

Look at the world-view implicit there. This is what I am pointing at. You seem to propose that a church doing things outside "be a place for crazy-people to gather" is something like fundamentally overstepping boundaries.

They have a parable for that. "You do not light a lamp, only to place it under a bushel basket."

> I cannot believe it when Christians talk about persecution in California inside their churches.

Imagine that you are working in California and hold what is an altogether-common Christian view: that "the legal vehicle of marriage should be offered only to man-woman couples with the general idea of founding a family."

Now imagine you donate, in secret, to a cause which supports that view (e.g. Proposition 8) — whilst being sensitive of the fact that many people would find this to imply that they are invalid as people, and so you make a point of not breathing a word of it, instead making it a special point in your daily life to treat any person who would be affected by this with respect. Suppose all of your colleagues and all those who interact with you will rush to your defence if you are accused of any impropriety in this regard.

There is a credible case that you should live in fear of being found out, being decried a hateful bigot in public forums, and losing your job. It has been amply demonstrated.

> Black churches in other areas work differently; worse... Will there be a Proposition 8 for Muslims?

The problems faced by black churches or Muslims may be more acutely serious in a variety of cases, and more serious overall as well, but of course this fails to justify any mistreatment of anyone.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#166
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than half of babies born in the US in 2012 were white. So while the demographics of the country as a whole haven't reached that point yet, due to a previously heavily white population that's aging but still alive, the demographics of kids born in 1999 and entering Harvard in 2017 are pretty darn close.

IIRC Harvard listed 2.5% of people graduating from that same class of 2021 as being Native American or indigenous people from Pacific Islands (don't remember what they were called precisely) which are actually 0.2% of general population. I strongly doubt you can make an argument that these people are there on merit alone.

Again: 0.2% of the general population? Or 0.2% of people born in 2000?

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Telling people are they permitted to meet... is the start of religious tolerance? Was there a thought even slightly in your mind that this was even mildly in tension? Like there will be laws on the books striking people from meeting in a Christian church? Like a political momentum is coming? That churches are allows to operate tax-free, that Churches often operate businesses flagrantly in view of the community but…

> Was there a thought even slightly in your mind that this was even mildly in tension? Not in any practical sense, but that's a pretty low bar, isn't it? The point is that even your own comments are loaded with views about how > Churches often operate businesses flagrantly in view of the community but nobody cares (education) Look at the world-view implicit there. This is what I am pointing at. You seem to propose th…

[deleted]

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di... I'd like to know your opinion about the neuroticism comment.

There is overwhelming evidence that women on average are more neurotic, anyone who argues about gender diversity should be aware of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031866/

this study is women ages 65-98. Anyway, did it say how many of those women are on heavy pharmaceutical drugs, the same ones that 30% of all first time heroine addicts used before restrictions were put on the overabundance of medications offered to anyone in pain? Just curious....

Anyways, one study about women age 65-98 does not result in overwhelming evidence.

Furthermore, even if it was, neuroticism and high anxiety could be a result of dealing with thousands of years of being disparaged of independence and socioeconomic venues for freedom. One thing I hope we can all agree on is evolution, and I think to state that women are in general more neurotic and attributing it to their chemistry as individuals and not the way theyve been treated for thousands and thousands of years is possibly a bit of an oversight.

Furthermore, I find it funny the author of the article (the google internal document) uses averages for women to describe his experience working at Google where everyone is generally agreed to be above average, which is why not anyone can roll in and get a job working there.

Undoubtedly, as the gender ratio is still off there, and in many places including, the standards are maintained to some arguable degree, and any woman working at google is probably far above the average woman, but of course the author has no problem applying general averages to the woman of a company who is strictly comprised of top notch and in general outlier performers.

It is honestly an insult to any women regardless of their performance once they get there, who has been offered a job or worked at google to be described by general averages by a male peer and then an argument is made on their biological limitations "with averages in mind of course"

Well, with averages in mind bro, you don't have any averages at google because none of your are average, so you kind of stumped your own point there.

Finally, if men think women are neurotic, this is an average characteristic described by a male gender of which has engaged in mass murder and until less than 100 years ago RAPING and pillaging as common means of procuring land and building societies. To pass off women as simply neurotic without considering how male behavior could have contributed to elongated stress and anxiety levels in women as the majority of their existence in the human species has been one of pure objectification with barely 100 years of voting rights to show for the progression of it, in the most sought after democracy in the world, is neurotic to me. Maybe that makes me neurotic.

This is very similiar to the concept of enslaving a people when it is well known it takes any family of any ethnicity in any country an average of five generations of consistent efforts to get out of poverty, and also encompassing enough cognitive dissonance to blaming an entire ethnicity previously enslaved as being "lazy" for not having achieved the same status as the wealthy elite who enslaved them.

Is there any point where the group of people who are so convinced women are plain and simply neurotic as a form of natural brain chemistry can stop and remember the nature vs. nurture argument? Biology day two, maybe day three?

We are still trying to get basic human rights for women in countries around the world who do billions in business with the U.S. every year. All American politics aside, it is a fact that when Donald Trump was filming a tv show where apparently all women flirt with him whether they mean to or not (they are just women, they don't even know what they are thinking. It's up for me to determine their emotions, not them. That would make them independent human beings who can define their own emotions and behavior and I need control of that) Hillary declared womens rights as human rights and got China to formally acknowledge that in the UN for the first time.

This is not a joke. We live in a world where we are still trying overhaul womens rights, and thats in a relatively globalized country, not to speak of womens rights elsewhere.

To be so confident that a few studies on wikipedia with less than 1000 participants overall provides an undisputable basis for women being more neurotic and agreaeable and furthermore not enabling that characteristic more to sit their job roles as the reason for the gender gap in tech, is nothing short of a blatant inability to see the big picture, and thinking of how global politics plays into a company that has offices in countries all over the world.

I don't even disagree with this guys right to have his own opinion, or his thoughtful attempt at alternative solutions because as a female in tech, and i know many other females in tech who agree, there are some good intentions gone wrong trying to make females feel more comfortable, but none of us have ever said "its actually because were neurotic and we need more people oriented roles for us", i disagree with his noncholant attribution to the "biological differences" in women (on average of course, of which doesnt apply to any google employee, on average) as an indisputable basis for which to base alternative solutions on.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#169
post #162
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, thanks for sharing the link! Do you mean this comment: "Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs."? It seems the premise (different average levels of neuroticism between males and females) passes the 10-minutes-of-scanning-google-results-test. But I am not sure that high…

I kind of wonder about the 'high-stress.' Why is programming (or whatever you want to call it) high-stress? I mean there doesn't seem like there would be an inherent reason for it to be high-stress just considering the task. And what about women in jobs like nurses and teachers?

Programming is high stress in a lot of situations. Its very mentally challenging work but I completely understand your question, especially in relation to nurses who are dealing with life and death situations on a daily basis or teachers who are privileged with venues of essentially being able to teach parent and influence young minds and pivot their future.

I don't want to do programmers a disservice by making the comparison to wallstreet, but I only make the comparison in that stakes are high maybe not with life or death situations (but it could be, because software applies to many things, including technology equipment in healthcare and military or otherwise where peoples well being depends in some way on it) but in general, there is a lot of work to be done, with hard deadlines, and alot of money to be lost or made depending on the rollout, and quality of the code.

Furthermore when the money is good (the ability for the next "unicorn" to make billions or say google to roll out a feature that engages literally billions of users and make money off of that) the pressure it high. You don't want to mess things up. Furthermore, when the money is good, as in potential to make lots of money or otherwise have a huge impact on a lot of people or both, there is alot of competition. You may if you are not in tech think of programmers as esoteric nerdy elites, but in general, getting a job at google say, is not a walk in the park. Many people apply, few are given offers to put it short. The level of rigor is high, and its generally expected that you will put in the hours you need to to get the job done, because theres probably someone more or equally qualified than you that would love to have your position in the next round of tends of thousands of applicants places like Google gets annually.

You do what you need to do to get the job done, meaning nights or weekends, and you are compensated well, treated well, have access to good healthcare food etc. The goal is to alleviate stress caused by financial strein in other areas of your life, so you can focus on work.

In the same way, there is a lot of freedom. If you excel and get the job done in 8 hours a day good for you, but with that level of rigor its also expected that you are probably motivated to do even more outside your job role, which is why Google has 20% time, where employees work on their own projects or projects with other people, and alot of google most successful rollouts to the public and probably internally as well, are a result of employees taking their own initiative outside of their explicit job roles to build and contribute.

These things are all possible I'm sure with nurses and teachers, but those jobs are highly regulated, and in general those jobs allow you to leave at certain times everyday. Being a nurse, as some of my family members are nurses I know is alot of work in school and on the job, but you are on shift, and you can leave when shift is over. This is not the case for a programmer.

You are given work, expected to get it done in your own way, however much time that takes for you, as long as its done on time and it works and has the expected or above quality, and then contribute even more typically and consistently show initiative beyond your job role.

Many programmers work on live components like the internet. An example is when someone at a big tech company last year or maybe earlier this year, entered a typo in a command line while executing a script/small computer program that brought down servers hosting roughly 1/3 of the internet websites hosted in the Unites States, think of the impact.

The same goes for software running wallstreet and otherwise. If the software were to crash, the consequences are dire whether in terms of money, global telecommunications and the busineses that utilize them or in some cases software directly related to human health etc.

Hope that answers some of your question.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dragging this to public and trying to shame the person is absolutely the wrong move. They're just proving his point that these people are not open to rigorous discussions. The perfect example is Milo. Every time he gets kicked out of a campus, his point gets proven. But almost every time I've seen someone sit down with him and debate his flawed arguments, he got pretty much proven wrong on most of them.

how much energy are we supposed to devote to sitting down with and debating people like Milo? that works out well for him because he has nothing else to do with his time; most people don't have the luxury.

Then don't go to the event. No one's forced anyone to attend it, just like no one's forced anyone to read this document or agree with it. There are millions of shitty discussions being conducted on the web at any given second. If you tried to stop every single one, you'd probably waste far more time.
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