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Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

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Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#151

Post by anonymouskimmer »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #124
alanfranzoni wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't have any data. The problem with monoculture, by the way, is that you might end up discarding somebody for "wrong culture fit" rather than actual skills. And that's something I'd like to avoid.

That's only a problem if there's a shortage of people with applicable skills, which doesn't apply to the vast majority of businesses. All other things being equal, a "good culture fit" should make a better member of the team. If monoculture improves team effectiveness, then a better culture fit is likely even worth paying a price premium.

"That's only a problem if there's a shortage of people with applicable skills"

No, it's a problem to the discarded person, too, and potentially any future colleagues they might have worked with (or even hired/fired). Hiring and firing are not zero-sum games, they impact more than the just immediate individuals concerned.

"If monoculture improves team effectiveness"

This is a big "IF" in my eyes. Everyone going to the same bar to have a good time may be great fun, but isn't it nice to have some people who prefer other work hours who can start or finish something up for a team member in odd hours? Conversely isn't it nice for the odd-hour or solitary team member to have a more group-oriented colleague who can bring things to/from the solitary person to the group session? Etc... to other specifics.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#152

Post by anonymouskimmer »

MichaelGG wrote: post #128
espadrine wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most women I worked with actually preferred working in teams of mainly men. Have you considered survival bias? The women that were bothered would have left those conditions in greater numbers. The problem in not caring about this statistical filtering is that it creates a blind spot for your company. It is harder to empathize with the unknown. When you build products that extend the world's social experience, this…

Do you have evidence for that? Are there really solid cases where, say, 20% female team handled certain features far better than a 5% female team, due to their gender? I see this implicit assumption everywhere that diversity comes up, yet at best I've only seen studies indicating better workplace environment or higher productivity on mixed teams. But never anything in detail. And why does diversity fail so hard when…

Because all physical activities I can think of (other than some complex team exercises) are really basic in the physical attributes they require.

Off the top of my head, spelunking would likely be a pretty diverse physical activity.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/sep/10/homo-naledi-...

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#153

Post by Klockan »

Klockan wrote: post #146
usmeteora wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di... I'd like to know your opinion about the neuroticism comment.

There is overwhelming evidence that women on average are more neurotic, anyone who argues about gender diversity should be aware of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031866/

Did I really get downvoted for stating that people who argues about gender diversity should be aware of one of the strongest psychological differences between the sexes? It doesn't matter if the cause is biological or not, fact is that women are on average significantly more neurotic than men in all modern societies.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#154

Post by _0ffh »

usmeteora wrote: post #143
_0ffh wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to read the thing to form an opinion. Unfortunately I have not found any links yet. Could you share, please? Also, about "but ultimately bias training is created by people with real credentials to be doing so": That seems to be questionable. I know from a professional psychologist that diagnosis of unconscious bias and especially bias training are standing on extremely thin ice scientifically. The hypothesis…

https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di... I'd like to know your opinion about the neuroticism comment.

Hi, thanks for sharing the link!

Do you mean this comment: "Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs."?

It seems the premise (different average levels of neuroticism between males and females) passes the 10-minutes-of-scanning-google-results-test. But I am not sure that higher neuroticism necessarily causes lower tolerance to stress, although a connection is suggested by [1]. That is, if we agree to use the word "neuroticism" as defined by the big-five scale.

The conclusion is carefully worded ("may contribute to"), and not obviously implausible, so it might at least be a valid starting point for a dialogue.

Having said this much, I must add that I find the document to not be very well balanced.

Just for example: Women also tend to score higher on extraversion than men. The same study I cited before [1] links low extraversion to social phobia and (tentatively to) anxiety disorders. Shouldn't that have been on that list as well, then? Also women tend to score higher on agreeableness, so I guess I could claim that'd make them better team players, no?

So my conclusion about the document is that while it seems to me to list some arguably valid concerns, it does not play entirely fair. But that is a weakness primarily of what is omitted by the text, not by what's in it.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3690955/

{Ed. I am aware the text mentions extraversion and agreeableness as well, but only in the context of their disadvantages, not of their advantages.}

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#155

Post by threatofrain »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #137
threatofrain wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say that someone is short, it goes to say that you have a comparison model, and that something is tall. Measuring SF as intolerant naturally invites a comparative measure, and here we are discussing how inviting SF is to North Carolina Christians. I am discussing vice versa by asking mere questions. It might enrich the discussion to say that it's still illegal for men to have sex with men in North Carolina, it…

> If you say that someone is short, it goes to say that you have a comparison model, and that something is tall. Since you bring it up, I will observe that I found New York to be a lot more tolerant in practice. Statistically, the political leanings are pretty comparable, but somehow people are less strident in practice, even during my tenure at a company with an explicit institutional commitment to social justice ca…

1. Telling people are they permitted to meet... is the start of religious tolerance?

Was there a thought even slightly in your mind that this was even mildly in tension? Like there will be laws on the books striking people from meeting in a Christian church? Like a political momentum is coming?

That churches are allows to operate tax-free, that Churches often operate businesses flagrantly in view of the community but nobody cares (education), and that there isn't any political force close to bringing tension on this matter, shows that churches are not merely tolerated... they are politically privileged.

? Can you think of any other group with this much power?

And in the Bay Area, I think that's clearer. Churches are bastions of middle-to-high SES wealth, revenue, sensibilities, and aspirations. They are places where parents can aspire for their children to be lawyers, doctors, or engineers. Black churches in other areas work differently; worse. I wonder if a lot of Bay Area Christians never attend even one black church.

I cannot believe it when Christians talk about persecution in California inside their churches. It blows my mind. Will there be a Proposition 8 for Muslims? If you're talking about religious diversity, then I understand. I'm promoting secularism, not religion.

Try to think of any group that has this much political privilege, while simultaneously talking about religious oppression, as if they stand for churches as well as mosques.

2. Why are you talking about whether I'm in touch with diversity?

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#156

Post by judahmeek »

Klockan wrote: post #153
Klockan wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is overwhelming evidence that women on average are more neurotic, anyone who argues about gender diversity should be aware of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031866/

Did I really get downvoted for stating that people who argues about gender diversity should be aware of one of the strongest psychological differences between the sexes? It doesn't matter if the cause is biological or not, fact is that women are on average significantly more neurotic than men in all modern societies.

Didn't downvote you so I can really only guess, but my guess is that you were downvoted for the argument that you were implying.

After all, even if the statistical female population does have a higher baseline for neuroticism, would that fact actually weaken the argument for gender diversity?

How would it be any different from the fact that men on average are taller?

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#157

Post by rullelito »

usmeteora wrote: post #142
throwaway2812 wrote: post #65

I've read the doc. At first skim, I thought it was going to be a reasonable "stop the echochamber" style doc, that points out issues with over-loving diversity without thinking about the impact of it, and that decries the strong-left culture at Google that can be alienating to right-leaning employees. But in reality, dude went full /r/TheRedPill and The_Donald on this. I think the best description I heard of the doc…

Welp, before the entire document was released I made a long statement below based on what I read, trying to give a reasonable consideration for somebody elses viewpoint, but then I read the document where the reader noncholantly listed the following things as inherent underlying biological differences unique to women, not to be up for debate, as the nondisputable premise for how to address the ideological echo chambe…

He's trying to reason about why the aggregated trend in the world looks the way it does. He repeatedly points out that this can never be assumed to hold on an individual level.

You are saying women do not experience anxiety more than men? Do men not strive for status more than women? Women are not more people-oriented than men?

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#158

Post by redditaccount »

Klockan wrote: post #146
usmeteora wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di... I'd like to know your opinion about the neuroticism comment.

There is overwhelming evidence that women on average are more neurotic, anyone who argues about gender diversity should be aware of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031866/

Maybe there are more neurotic women because neurotic men kill themselves at a rate of 1.8x more than women?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicid...

Or maybe women are more neurotic because they need to put up with this kind of shit at the workplace.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#159

Post by Klockan »

judahmeek wrote: post #156
Klockan wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did I really get downvoted for stating that people who argues about gender diversity should be aware of one of the strongest psychological differences between the sexes? It doesn't matter if the cause is biological or not, fact is that women are on average significantly more neurotic than men in all modern societies.

Didn't downvote you so I can really only guess, but my guess is that you were downvoted for the argument that you were implying. After all, even if the statistical female population does have a higher baseline for neuroticism, would that fact actually weaken the argument for gender diversity? How would it be any different from the fact that men on average are taller?

> After all, even if the statistical female population does have a higher baseline for neuroticism, would that fact actually weaken the argument for gender diversity?

Nobody argued against diversity, the document in question only stated that our current diversity efforts aren't really working and that we should consider measurable gender differences such as prevalence of neuroticism if we want to really move the needle.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#160

Post by mirko22 »

usmeteora wrote: post #142
throwaway2812 wrote: post #65

I've read the doc. At first skim, I thought it was going to be a reasonable "stop the echochamber" style doc, that points out issues with over-loving diversity without thinking about the impact of it, and that decries the strong-left culture at Google that can be alienating to right-leaning employees. But in reality, dude went full /r/TheRedPill and The_Donald on this. I think the best description I heard of the doc…

Welp, before the entire document was released I made a long statement below based on what I read, trying to give a reasonable consideration for somebody elses viewpoint, but then I read the document where the reader noncholantly listed the following things as inherent underlying biological differences unique to women, not to be up for debate, as the nondisputable premise for how to address the ideological echo chambe…

What he said is actually correct from Psychological standpoint

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits#Ge...

The ratios of each trait combined together is what gives you your personality.

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