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The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

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Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#191

Post by bhouston »

throwanem wrote: post #176
bhouston wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll have to explain the missing logical steps as I do not see how you got to this conclusion.

There are no logical steps to miss. None are required. The concept of the "noble lie" originates in Plato's inexplicably popular power fantasy The Republic . Its purpose there is as I describe it here; I differ only in choosing terms rather less congratulatory than the old fraud used himself.

The world I live in is filled with various Noble lies and self deceptions and mass deceptions. It does seem necessary to me for the modern world that isn't constantly at war with itself to exist.

There is so many that I do not know where to begin and I am not going to begin. This one seems on balance like one of the less harmful ones.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#192

Post by jboggan »

jerrylives wrote: post #23

> internal meme network i really want to believe that at Google there is a massive distributed cluster dedicated solely to facilitating meme throughput

Recently left Google and I can confirm, Memegen is real and draws significant resources to operate.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#193

Post by devrandomguy »

door wrote: post #187
devrandomguy wrote: post #170

How is it sexual?

straight men commenting on the attractiveness of women's bodies is pretty blatantly sexual. what other reason is there to make that kind of comment? "pure aesthetics"? like Wow Jessica from accounting's body is consistent with Greek Ideals about Archetypal Female Beauty. come on.

Commenting on someone's bathing suit is not inherently sexual, because we do it in non-sexual contexts; for example, I complemented my nephiew's new swim trunks earlier this summer.

A particular complement might be sexual, but we shouldn't assume that. For all we know, the guy is gay, and we are now discriminating against that.

Furthermore, commenting directly on the awesomeness of someone else's body is also not inherently sexual. Have you never admired a female athlete, the way you admire a male athelete?

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#194

Post by stagbeetle »

skywhopper wrote: post #57
davesque wrote: post #27

I don't really understand why this is getting so much attention. It's just some guy's opinion.

It's a toxic set of opinions that's unfortunately very representative of large numbers of white male tech employees. It's getting attention because it's useful to see laid out so clearly the biases, blatantly wrong assertions, and invalid logic such folks use to perpetuate the idea that "everything's fine in tech hiring".

> It's a toxic set of opinions that's unfortunately very representative of large numbers of white male tech employees.

Do you have any data on this?

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#195

Post by home_boi »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #8
factsaresacred wrote: post #5

I fail to understand the outrage but attribute that to the fact that few bothered to read the document before allowing themselves to be outraged by it - such is the shallow, feeling-fueled, hysteria-laden media cycle of today. The doc presents a point-of-view, grounded in reality. Furthermore it's not "anti-diversity", but rather anti-discrimination - specifically 'positive 'discrimination which it discredits while p…

There is bad with the good. The suggestion that men and women ARE different is taboo. The premise that the differences between them are social as opposed to literal is a much easier way to force the same point (and IMO more correct but I respect I lack the science to be certain). This person lacks tact and the way they view the entire political sphere as just left/right is ultimately of concern. Way too simplistic ou…

> The suggestion that men and women ARE different is taboo.

This is the assumption being made by diversity hiring and diversity advocates. That some races/genders have different perspectives and viewpoints than others.

It can quickly follow that some of these viewpoints may make a person more or less fit for certain careers.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#196

Post by jack9 »

grey-area wrote: post #43
factsaresacred wrote: post #5

I fail to understand the outrage but attribute that to the fact that few bothered to read the document before allowing themselves to be outraged by it - such is the shallow, feeling-fueled, hysteria-laden media cycle of today. The doc presents a point-of-view, grounded in reality. Furthermore it's not "anti-diversity", but rather anti-discrimination - specifically 'positive 'discrimination which it discredits while p…

I fail to understand the outrage but attribute that to the fact that few bothered to read Rather than assuming those who disagree with you are shallow and hysterical (a contentious word choice, given the subject), perhaps consider why others might be outraged, you could try some empathy (though I know the article warns us against empathy). The doc presents a point-of-view, grounded in reality. Furthermore it's not "a…

I think you have a penchant for turning probabilistic norms (women do score higher than men for neuroticism, on average from puberty onward, for example) into straw men.

> Women are not more neurotic than men

That's not the same thing, so no.

> From what I've seen it's exactly the opposite;

Finland is a case study in cultural gender equalization leading to gender gaps becoming more pronounced over time. You might want to look up Jordan Peterson, who is rather high profile, in regards to this topic. I think it's obvious that this document was formed after seeing a bit of his youtube material.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#197

Post by rifung »

Animats wrote: post #143

I'm amazed that people are seriously upset by someone publishing that. Somehow, most of the women I know don't complain about harassment much. The one who does complain mostly gets it from her female boss. The one in SF tech says that Uber people tend to be jerks but the rest of the industry there isn't bad. The one from France has more problems with age than with sex. The lawyer has had some annoyances, but finds it…

> Somehow, most of the women I know don't complain about harassment much.

It does not seem productive to trivialize and disregard people's issues only because we haven't witnessed them ourselves.

Indeed this attitude is actually why an internal group where people can report sexist, racist, and other inappropriate behavior is called "Yes at Google", because so many people thought this kind of thing doesn't happen, or at least it wouldn't at Google.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#198

Post by oddlyaromatic »

ithkuil wrote: post #156
oddlyaromatic wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make many assumptions here, on many different levels. Regarding parent's comment: 1. Iran was but one example of the uneven rates of participation in science. Of course there may be many interesting reasons for this. There are many reasons for most things. 2. Parent didn't actually jump to many conclusions as far as I can tell. You may be projecting. What conclusion did they make based on the 70%? Finally, your l…

> Literature and gender studies are not alternatives to "useful" fields of study, they are useful. Culture matters. I believe "useful" in this context refers to having a higher chance of being able to land a job with a decent pay. It's not unheard of parents of non affluent families trying hard to convince their children to pursue career paths that would give them certain economic self sufficiency rather than somethi…

That makes sense. So that WAS me projecting ;)

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#200

Post by humanrebar »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #82
jerrylives wrote: post #23

> internal meme network i really want to believe that at Google there is a massive distributed cluster dedicated solely to facilitating meme throughput

There most likely is, I know an engineer that works on it. Apparently they were one of the teams piloting Tensorflow for Android...have no idea why though....

Sometimes the best places to swing for the fences, technologically, are places far away from the core business, where the impact of a half-baked idea is minimal.
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