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Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

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Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#281

Post by Retric »

Simon_says wrote: post #231
azernik wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very US-centric view of free speech. In many other (developed, democratic) countries, a lot of the shit 8chan does would be viewed as incitement to violence, hate speech, and/or invasion of privacy. The absolutist conception of free speech in the US is an outlier.

If those activities are crimes in a country, then prosecute the crime. It shouldn't be up to a random middle-man like Patreon to be judge and jury and make those (sometimes very difficult) decisions. It's akin to my grocery deciding to not sell me an apple because I'm a suspected murderer. There are better and more formalized methods to deal with violations of social norms.

This is a little more direct of a connection.

If a someone shows up and orders 5 tons of ammonium nitrate in December and want's it shipped to Washington DC that's very much a reason to decline and possibly contact law enforcement even as a private citizen. Similarly, free speech has never been an invitation to say anything in any way at any time.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#282

Post by syshum »

specialist wrote: post #263
azernik wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very US-centric view of free speech. In many other (developed, democratic) countries, a lot of the shit 8chan does would be viewed as incitement to violence, hate speech, and/or invasion of privacy. The absolutist conception of free speech in the US is an outlier.

It's a very libertarian (puerile) view of free speech. The rest of us understand principles like civility, that your rights stop where mine begin, don't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, balancing rights and responsibilities, and that hatespeech is a form of assault.

No "Hate Speech" is not a form of assault, nor should it be treated as such

Further the entire concept of "hate Speech" is rife for abuse and is antithesis of Free Speech.

How do you objectively define "Hate Speech", do you trust government to define this, that is a scary thought if you do...

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#283

Post by _xhok »

specialist wrote: post #263
azernik wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very US-centric view of free speech. In many other (developed, democratic) countries, a lot of the shit 8chan does would be viewed as incitement to violence, hate speech, and/or invasion of privacy. The absolutist conception of free speech in the US is an outlier.

It's a very libertarian (puerile) view of free speech. The rest of us understand principles like civility, that your rights stop where mine begin, don't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, balancing rights and responsibilities, and that hatespeech is a form of assault.

The problem is deciding who gets to define those concepts in edge cases. Otherwise motivated parties try to push everything they don't like into those categories. "Hate speech" is a common example.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#284

Post by bigiain »

pillowkusis wrote: post #7

I have seen so many content creators go full time and create awesome work because Patreon gives them a format to incentivize their followers to pay them. The economics are beautiful — turns out just 1,000 people (a pittance on internet mass media websites) donating $5 a month will totally change the way you run your life. And even better, these artists are independent in a way no artist has ever been before. You’re n…

The "1000 true fans" essay from 2008 predicted a lot of this:

http://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#285

Post by padobson »

specialist wrote: post #263
azernik wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very US-centric view of free speech. In many other (developed, democratic) countries, a lot of the shit 8chan does would be viewed as incitement to violence, hate speech, and/or invasion of privacy. The absolutist conception of free speech in the US is an outlier.

It's a very libertarian (puerile) view of free speech. The rest of us understand principles like civility, that your rights stop where mine begin, don't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, balancing rights and responsibilities, and that hatespeech is a form of assault.

> and that hatespeech is a form of assault

Are there any legal precedents upholding this? Being the inciting ring-leader of a violent mob is one thing, but if someone called me a mick for spilling their Guinness, I wouldn't call that an assault

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#286

Post by scottLobster »

syshum wrote: post #276
scottLobster wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No and no, I'm not advocating anything of the sort. My point is simply that property holders, at least in America, are under no obligation to enforce rights. They are under obligation to not commit crimes, and as a nation we've decided that a business refusing service on the basis of skin color is a crime. Refusing to rebroadcast or support the opinions of someone you don't like is at present not a crime, and I since…

>> as it would to many pro-gunners who are usually big on personal property rights. You do know there are many gun owners that advocate for passing laws that make signs stating a property is "gun free" to be unenforceable as a matter of law right? And view "gun free" government buildings to be unconstitutional

I've heard of opposition to those signs for businesses and public areas, with an argument that carrying a gun in public is a civil right. I've never heard of any serious opposition for forcing guns on personal property, like homes. I'm sure some wingnuts are out there on the ultra-libertarian fringe, but I've yet to meet one in real life.

For my part I see the signs as useful. If I see a "gun free" sign on a business that just tells me to spend my money elsewhere if possible.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#287

Post by _xhok »

ngold wrote: post #190
dna_polymerase wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no "getting it right" in free speech. Either you allow free speech or you don't, if you are keeping one controversial thing but kick out the other you gave up on free speech. You can't kick someone out because you think its right and claim allowing free spech.

Patreon is not a government body. If you host a bake sale open to everyone in your house, you can and should kick out the screaming lunatics that keep making a mess. The screaming lunatics are free to host their own bake sale at their house.

That's technically true, but the Patreon CEO has claimed that they're committed to free speech, which is false if they're going to kick out screaming lunatics who are protected under the definition of free speech. If so they shouldn't get credit for it.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#288

Post by xexers »

AlwaysBCoding wrote: post #265
AmIFirstToThink wrote: post #148

barf. yuck. I found that article physically repulsive. Patreon, if you are listening, don't buy into all the power that the article wants to shower upon you. They want you to influence your exercise of that power, and they want you to use that power to do their bidding in limiting free debate of ideas. Patrons and the person that they support, that's it, that's all there is to it. The silver coin is being given by ha…

They've already fucked it up. Here's an hour long interview with Patreon's CEO, Jack Conte, where he goes through some ridiculous mental gymnastics trying to justify why it's ok he is kicking conservative journalists off his platform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpbDgCj9rw

Can you give me the TLDW;?

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#289

Post by AmIFirstToThink »

module0000 wrote: post #177
AmIFirstToThink wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Who gets to decide what commons we all should share? Record labels and publishers? Youtube, facebook and twitter are already exercising undue influence in terms of algo changes to suggested videos or auto-play videos. https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/1/16072840/youtube-placing-l... It's a marketplace of ideas. Let them compete. Google deciding what's good and what's not is not fair to the people who want…

How is that undue influence? Did you arrive at youtube without any action on your part, was it auto playing when you logged in to your computer? Sounds like you dislike big media... just not enough to tune out. tldrl; eat your own dogfood before telling others to do so.

Huh?

Youtube is big media? It's only in recent history that Youtube is exercising power to decide what stays and what doesn't, even if it meets the youtube content policy. This is political opinion enforced by youtube.

Given Google is a public company, taking one side or another in a political discussion may not be in their interest, it would be their right of first amendment to change the sites they own as they wish, but it dilutes the usefulness and trustworthiness of their product in the eyes of the customers, and the stock holders may not like it that way. The employees have fiduciary duty to not impose their political views on their product.

I am asking these companies as a fan of their platform that they keep it neutral.

I am not selling any dogfood. I am asking dogfood companies to sell it to all dog owners, don't discriminate if they have a poodle or a pit bull.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#290

Post by makomk »

seanie_patreon wrote: post #207
makomk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably also why they still haven't fixed their handling of security reports since they left everyone's personal information on a system with a web-accessible root Python shell for over a week after being warned about said hole, and it inevitably got hacked and leaked all over the Internet. (A researcher was complaining about not being able to report a serious issue a couple of days ago.) As long as everything's cen…

Hi, I'm a security engineer at Patreon. Like most companies we take security reports from folks via security@patreon.com and support@patreon.com. The dedicated security email is the quickest route to the security team. We also have an invite only HackerOne program where we've invited the top reporters on HackerOne. When folks send us a valid report via email we also add them to our HackerOne program for reward (we've…

While that's good to know, it's not me you should be telling this to now, it's this guy a few days ago: https://twitter.com/DMDeck16/status/889156464891371520 https://twitter.com/DMDeck16/status/890188665389010945
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