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Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

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Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#211

Post by gasof »

tomcam wrote: post #192
chrisoverzero wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen Patreon kicking people off their platform for political reasons […] Have you? Are you thinking of Lauren Southern? Or maybe It's Going Down? The explanation from Patreon is very reasonable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcK6GvgVPs

Former (thanks to you) Lauren Southern fan. That video is illuminating.

Illuminating as in... misleading?

They stop NGO ships from illegally ferrying more migrants into Italy (they already have done that for 100k+ migrants), and instead force them to go back to Libya. They also save migrants if need be and then bring them to Libya.

If the NGO's being blocked from illegally transferig migrants to Italy makes them take longer to get people off the boat onto the coast, perhaps they shouldn't have gone to Italy in the first place.

There also wouldn't be nearly as many human traffickers in that area if the NGO's weren't helping them into Italy, so if Defend Europe is effective in deterring new migrants it might well end up saving lives, and it will definitely be for the living conditions of lower class EU citizens, as the migrants are not vetted and likely to be of an average IQ of 83 (the average in Libya in 2006), and thus compete for work with the EU lower class and press down wages, or they don't find work and become a drain on the social nets.

Not to speak of the corrosive effects of immigration without proper integration, and the danger of the erosion of western values by displacement of white populations (who reproduce at sub-replacement rates) by Islamic, generally lower-IQ populations who are more interested in conquest and Sharia law than in women's rights or freedom of religion.

If you find what I say offensive, I'm here to talk. Please use facts and not feelings, and if you want to accuse me of "hate speech"/badthink define those words first.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#213

Post by scottLobster »

syshum wrote: post #198
ngold wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patreon is not a government body. If you host a bake sale open to everyone in your house, you can and should kick out the screaming lunatics that keep making a mess. The screaming lunatics are free to host their own bake sale at their house.

>>Patreon is not a government body. Ok, and. Do you believe only governments are a threat to free speech? Free Speech is a concept that every person, every company, every government should work to up hold. While governments can and have been the source of censorship, that is not the only source. Today free speech is under massive assault not by Government but by Society at large, society it seems have lost all respec…

No it isn't, it's an exercise in property rights and a reminder that most of the "internet" as we know it, including this very board, is private property.

Barring a legally binding contract or criminal activity, no one is under any obligation to protect the civil rights of those on their property. If I wanted to hold a "whites only" house party and turn away minorities at the door, I can do that. If I refuse to allow protesters to use my front lawn as a staging area, I can do that. If I own a website and someone says something I don't like, I can ban them. If someone doesn't like Patreon's policies then they are welcome to start Conservatreon.

I think the scarier prospect is people thinking that property holders should be forced to act as law enforcement within their domains, and to make determinations about civil rights. Sure it may seem rosy for free speech, but you're opening the flood gates with that one.

Free speech simply says that you can't be arrested for speaking. It doesn't say people have to listen, and forcing people to listen is only going to worsen the situation you describe.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#214

Post by cholantesh »

jorvi wrote: post #183
bryanlarsen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They kicked off 8chan but kept The Sarkeesian Effect so in my opinion they've got it exactly right. They keep up pretty nasty stuff in the name of free speech, but don't let you cross the line into doxing and the like. I much prefer having sensible humans at the helm than have something purely anonymous.

Sarkeesian uses Mortal Kombat as example of a game that 'promotes violence against women' (despite being known and marketed as a brutal fighting game) so one would have to wonder if she is such a noble venture to support..

The Sarkeesian Effect is a (terrible) documentary that is critical of her, but anyway, do you have a link to her criticism of MK? To my knowledge her beef was with the sexualization of the female combatants.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#215

Post by toomanybeersies »

jorvi wrote: post #183
bryanlarsen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They kicked off 8chan but kept The Sarkeesian Effect so in my opinion they've got it exactly right. They keep up pretty nasty stuff in the name of free speech, but don't let you cross the line into doxing and the like. I much prefer having sensible humans at the helm than have something purely anonymous.

Sarkeesian uses Mortal Kombat as example of a game that 'promotes violence against women' (despite being known and marketed as a brutal fighting game) so one would have to wonder if she is such a noble venture to support..

I am not a fan of Sarkeesian by any means (to be honest, I just try and avoid that entire part of the internet, on both sides), but there's a difference between "noble venture" and "inciting violence or other harmful behavior".

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#216

Post by dgfgfdagasdfgfa »

CaptSpify wrote: post #44
dgfgfdagasdfgfa wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, this also means you likely have much less in common with the person next to you.

Is that a problem? Legit question, because I'm not sure why you bring it up

I don't think you could talk about anything like this as "good" or "bad"; it's happening regardless of what anyone thinks, wants, or intends.

However, alienation is about to get a hell of a lot more crushing.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#217

Post by cholantesh »

vetinari wrote: post #181
phry wrote: post #175

Laura Southern literally advocates for the death of migrants, pardon me for not giving a fuck about her losing an income stream.

> Laura Southern literally advocates for the death of migrants, pardon me for not giving a fuck about her losing an income stream. That's huge misinterpretation. What they wouldn't do is to ferry the migrants from Libyan coast to Italy. They would return them back to Libya. That's not advocating the death of migrants. That's exactly what the coast guard of Italy should be doing!

There just firing on the unarmed flotillas in self defense! They're Defending Europe, get it?

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#218

Post by erikpukinskis »

sqeaky wrote: post #134
erikpukinskis wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An AI would need to live a human life in a human body in order to understand what "benevolence to humans" means, and such an experience would make it functionally equivalent to a human with a cloud prosthesis.

Do we need to live in the body of dog to understand "benevolence to dogs"?

Yes.

Luckily we live in bodies that are almost exactly the same as dogs.

The reason why you empathize with a dog more than an octopus is precisely because our bodies are similar.

Do you have another theory as to why we empathize with dogs more than, say, a forest, or a hive of ants?

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#219

Post by LeifCarrotson »

dna_polymerase wrote: post #142
bryanlarsen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They kicked off 8chan but kept The Sarkeesian Effect so in my opinion they've got it exactly right. They keep up pretty nasty stuff in the name of free speech, but don't let you cross the line into doxing and the like. I much prefer having sensible humans at the helm than have something purely anonymous.

There is no "getting it right" in free speech. Either you allow free speech or you don't, if you are keeping one controversial thing but kick out the other you gave up on free speech. You can't kick someone out because you think its right and claim allowing free spech.

You can find a happy medium, allowing all but the most egregious things. Human judgement isn't perfect, but it's good enough, because ban-worthy content is relatively rare. Freedom of speech is like personal liberty: Do what you want without harming others.

Want to talk politics from a moderate, conservative, liberal, socialist, or libertarian perspective? Sure. But advocating violent revolution is something different.

There's a lot of room between a totalitarian Ministry of Thought and enabling actively harmful extremism.

Re: Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture

#220

Post by quadrangle »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #107

Patreon is starting to take off for open source, too, which is great. I set one up and it offsets a good deal of the infrastructure costs for my projects. Many FOSS Patreons have pretty low figures - please go looking for them and support your tools!

Take it to the rational conclusions.

A) Given the community supporting you as patrons, fully free/libre/open productions are the only ones that really deserve support. What justice is there for creators to retain All-Rights-Reserved monopoly when they are already getting paid up front? The works ought to all be free/libre/open.

B) Patreon itself ought to be fully free/libre/open and run democratically as a cooperative (too late now, VC business model etc)

Yes, every additional $ to FLO projects is a good thing. I don't think Patreon as a middle-man capturing $'s that would go to the projects anyway is good though. Hard to know what's the case often. The $'s are more a result of the project making a concerted effort to fundraise and would likely happen with the same concerted effort whether they use Patreon or another payment method.

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