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When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

economist.com

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Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#101

Post by lr4444lr »

johnnyb9 wrote: post #33
mathperson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. But it isn't really subject to market forces the way software engineering is. A better teacher doesn't bring in more revenue and profit for a public school. Most teachers work in public schools. I am not disagreeing with you in general (I am not taking a stand either way) but this is a pretty silly example.

So they are valuable, so long as you don't value them with money.

They're not paid more because their unions negotiate a fixed salary schedule through collective bargaining, and most teachers support this state of affairs. It's hardly a pure value judgment on the part of "society".

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#103

Post by Antrikshy »

oldboyFX wrote: post #11

Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…

Well, point (1) doesn't work because sexist capitalists who would be willing to pay women less would also probably think women do less work.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#104

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

oldboyFX wrote: post #11

Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…

1. "If women were 25% cheaper than men"

That is not what the article said.

2. "women in general are more agreeable than men"

???

3. "women tend to care about people while men care about things"

???

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#105

Post by bllguo »

prostoalex wrote: post #81
johnfn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I know, people value things according to what value they obtain from them. That's not true. Very easy counterexample: negotiation. Women are generally less inclined to negotiate then men, causing them to earn lower salaries. Does that mean that people value jobs performed by men who negotiate more than jobs performed by women who don't? Of course not - it has nothing to do with the value-add at all.

> Women are generally less inclined to negotiate then men This blanket statement seems sexist. Some are inclined and some are not. Besides, as soon as one leaves the world of small business, the corporations stick to salary bands attached to specific titles. The variations within the bands are usually driven by longevity with the company as well as performance reviews. It makes things easier in HR department, and cre…

Goodness, man. Stating facts is not sexist.

> Some are inclined and some are not.

That is what "generally" implies, yes.

There is an argument that women are generally less inclined to negotiate due to the effects of sexism.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#106

Post by usefulcat »

darawk wrote: post #22
johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

> The whole point is that the way society systematically undervalues women-dominated professions is sexism at work. What? Can you explain how that is possible? As far as I know, people value things according to what value they obtain from them. There is no way for that to be 'sexist'. People are paid according to the value they produce. To call that sexist is just completely inconsistent with any reasonable conceptio…

"They're not underpaid because they're women, they're underpaid because they're being paid by a bureaucracy."

That's a theory. The relevant question is, what evidence exists to support or refute that theory?

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#107

Post by johnfn »

darawk wrote: post #65
johnfn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely sexism that salary negotiations favor behaviors that men are comfortable with and women are not.

No, it isn't. The world doesn't need to be designed to produce equality of outcome. Just equality of opportunity. Women may choose to negotiate less, and that's fine. They'll get paid less. If women want to choose to negotiate more, they can do that too, and be paid more. If you want to argue that it's sexist that we socialize women to negotiate less, i'm all for that, though.

> If you want to argue that it's sexist that we socialize women to negotiate less, i'm all for that, though.

If that's the road you feel comfortable walking down, I think it's fine to compromise at that point. Regardless of how it happened, the result - women not negotiating - is still the same.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#108

Post by rarec »

oldboyFX wrote: post #75
johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

Do you think there are biological differences between genders ? For example, is the fact that men tend to negotiate more a social construct, or is it based in biology? Should society tax men for their behavior and redistribute the wealth to women? I'm not arguing for any side by the way. Not sure what to think of this myself.

A bachelor tax? I mean, really, what would that actually solve?

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#109

Post by ebola1717 »

dixie_land wrote: post #70
projectileboy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point (1) makes perfect sense, except that historically the answer has very clearly been "no", as it has applied to capable women, people of color, LGBTQ, etc. etc.

the answer is yes if you simply look at how many Chinese and Indians there are for entry-level software engineering jobs. if the answer is "no" for women or any other particular group then it just proves the point of the article, i.e. there's barely a pay gap when factoring in exact job responsibilities.

> job responsibilities

Job title*

Which means that there is still a well-paying-job-title gap between the sexes

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#110

Post by honestoHeminway »

onewhonknocks wrote: post #3

When adjusted for factors such as hiatuses for raising kids, the answer is 'no.'

I sometimes wonder, what is it that makes those dull office jobs so much more important. I mean, your kids are your own best bet on eternety. Everything else crumbles to dust - by now often in your lifetime. The device you program for today, your son/daugther wont even see in a museum.

So what if its not a caricature harmony like on stock photo? So what if they have completely diffrent plans? Its life, its not machines, and thats why it will outlive them.

Touch your navel- there is a blockchain, going a way back.

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