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Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

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Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#41

Post by shin_lao »

roel_v wrote: post #29
shin_lao wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your point. A poor person sells drug because it's the only way to make money. He doesn't make a lot of money out of it and any job would be better as he would get health care and pension on top of it. He would not also risk going to jail or die from a gunshot. Now there's no more "illegal drugs" to sell. What does this person do to make money? Remember there's no job for him/her and he somehow needs to ea…

Your argument only holds if all poor people would switch to selling drugs. You're saying there is no alternative to selling drugs, which there obviously is, as demonstrated by the hundreds of millions of people worldwide who are poor yet do not sell drugs. If drugs are not illegal, those who are now selling drugs will simple have to do like the other poos people now.

No, I'm saying that people who currently chose a life of crime would look for other criminal activities.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#42

Post by jws »

avar wrote: post #33
dublinclontarf wrote: post #2

I did a little digging around a little more than a year ago when I had read about the narcotics submersibles. With this step up to full submarines I'm thinking that the people using these can now have them built in almost any location next to the sea around the world. Somalia would seem to be a good place to build, no government to sieze them.

What I find odd is that they're hiding their construction efforts at all. Why not start a company and build them out in the open? It's not like it's illegal to construct submarines.

It is illegal under US law to use unregistered vessels to evade detection anywhere in the open ocean.[1] I'm pretty sure the US government would extend "conspiring" to include your smuggling yacht company's owner and employees.

[1] http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-3598

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#43

Post by jamesseda »

dagw wrote: post #18
roel_v wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords./ This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in weeks on the internet, and believe me, that counts for something. How can they flood the market with cheaper substances? There is little reason a kilo of cocaine should cost much more than a kilo of coffee (ok maybe 5 times more than that because of lower yield per square cultivated meter). Still, the…

Criminal gangs make good money selling tobacco and alcohol, which are legal basically everywhere. Sure not as much as illegal drugs, but still good money. Claiming legalization will destroy the illegal drug trade is just as naive as believing legalization will have no effect.

By "not as much" do you mean way way less?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1268064...

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#44

Post by MichaelGG »

dagw wrote: post #18
roel_v wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords./ This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in weeks on the internet, and believe me, that counts for something. How can they flood the market with cheaper substances? There is little reason a kilo of cocaine should cost much more than a kilo of coffee (ok maybe 5 times more than that because of lower yield per square cultivated meter). Still, the…

Criminal gangs make good money selling tobacco and alcohol, which are legal basically everywhere. Sure not as much as illegal drugs, but still good money. Claiming legalization will destroy the illegal drug trade is just as naive as believing legalization will have no effect.

Surely you aren't claiming alcohol smugglers create a level of violence even close to the "drug trade"?

Additionally, if laws for illegal production and distribution were kept as serious as they are now, the risk/benefit ratio would be way off.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#45

Post by avar »

jws wrote: post #42
avar wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find odd is that they're hiding their construction efforts at all. Why not start a company and build them out in the open? It's not like it's illegal to construct submarines.

It is illegal under US law to use unregistered vessels to evade detection anywhere in the open ocean .[1] I'm pretty sure the US government would extend "conspiring" to include your smuggling yacht company's owner and employees. [1] http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-3598

In the U.S. yes, but this is in Ecuador. Such a company would operate wholly outside the U.S., and only sell the submarines in kit form, ready for assembly.

Here's the full text of the law b.t.w.: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-110publ407/html/PLAW-110pu...

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#46

Post by randallsquared »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #40
hugh3 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might it not be better to make drugs less safe? Kill off all the users, and there's no market. What we should do is make it illegal for hospitals to treat overdoses.

Why not just enforce a death penalty for drug use? And maybe excessive parking tickets?

But who defines "excessive"? If we can define it as "1 ticket", that simplifies the whole process, since we can issue SWAT gear instead of ticket-writing paraphernalia to meter enforcement workers.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#47

Post by jws »

avar wrote: post #45
jws wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is illegal under US law to use unregistered vessels to evade detection anywhere in the open ocean .[1] I'm pretty sure the US government would extend "conspiring" to include your smuggling yacht company's owner and employees. [1] http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-3598

In the U.S. yes, but this is in Ecuador. Such a company would operate wholly outside the U.S., and only sell the submarines in kit form, ready for assembly. Here's the full text of the law b.t.w.: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-110publ407/html/PLAW-110pu...

As soon as a sub comes into international waters the law applies. I see no reason why the interpretation of "conspiring" would be hindered by kit-form subs or sovereignty of the manufacturing location. If there was a thriving market for cargo submarines for non-covert haulage, maybe.

I suppose if the shipyard owners don't do too many subs, don't travel internationally, and the country doesn't extradite to the United States, then the shipyard owner would be relatively secure. You'd have to make a fair number or be otherwise interesting for a forcible extraction.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#48

Post by stretchwithme »

shin_lao wrote: post #11
stretchwithme wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the entire workplace suddenly decide to start using drugs? Its not like employers can't detect stoned employees.

You don't do it at work, you do it after. Your life purpose becomes "being able to pay for enough Khat". The story there is that the man that managed Djibouti's port forbid the usage of Khat for his workers and couldn't walk around without his body guards.

If people can use drugs at home and escape detection by their employer, how is it the employer you mentioned is able to enforce his rules?

The United States State department reports "Penalties for possessing, using, or trafficking in illegal drugs in Djibouti are severe, and convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences and heavy fines."

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1101.html

So severe penalties for drug use don't seem to work in your example. And they don't work in prisons in the US, either drug use runs wild and the state has complete control over the lives of the inhabitants.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#49

Post by stretchwithme »

stcredzero wrote: post #39
zokier wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A living customer is far more profitable even to drug lords than a dead one.

Yes, but I don't think drug lords have a problem with the supply of those.

They can always blame someone in their supply chain. And I'm pretty sure returns aren't permitted anyway. And they have guns and are on drugs and could even report you to the police.

The normal incentives for ensuring quality simply are not there. I don't think they know about Six Sigma.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#50

Post by roel_v »

shin_lao wrote: post #41
roel_v wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument only holds if all poor people would switch to selling drugs. You're saying there is no alternative to selling drugs, which there obviously is, as demonstrated by the hundreds of millions of people worldwide who are poor yet do not sell drugs. If drugs are not illegal, those who are now selling drugs will simple have to do like the other poos people now.

No, I'm saying that people who currently chose a life of crime would look for other criminal activities.

Oh OK well I addressed that point two posts earlier. In short, most people who are now in the drug are not in a position to switch to other forms of crime. So overall the number of crimes and the number of criminals must go down. I have no data to back up any estimates onto how much, but I'd guess that something in the magnitude of 75% of all current criminals who commit crimes because of drugs now will not switch to violent crimes (let alone to fraud, for which - let's be frank here - most petty criminals are too stupid).
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