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Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

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Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#11

Post by shin_lao »

stretchwithme wrote: post #10
shin_lao wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you don't want more recreational drugs in your country. Alcohol is already a problem, so is tobacco, do we really want to add more? It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords. They will continue to sell different kind of drugs, because whatever you legalize, there's going to be a market for different kind of substances; and they will simply flood the market with cheaper, no…

Why would the entire workplace suddenly decide to start using drugs? Its not like employers can't detect stoned employees.

You don't do it at work, you do it after. Your life purpose becomes "being able to pay for enough Khat".

The story there is that the man that managed Djibouti's port forbid the usage of Khat for his workers and couldn't walk around without his body guards.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#12

Post by sailormoon »

shin_lao wrote: post #11
stretchwithme wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the entire workplace suddenly decide to start using drugs? Its not like employers can't detect stoned employees.

You don't do it at work, you do it after. Your life purpose becomes "being able to pay for enough Khat". The story there is that the man that managed Djibouti's port forbid the usage of Khat for his workers and couldn't walk around without his body guards.

I don't believe that for a second. Most people I know can get any drugs they want, and yet they're not a bunch of drugged up crazies, just like most adults can buy alcohol whenever they want, and most are not alcoholics.

Let people make their own decisions.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#13

Post by ahn »

demallien wrote: post #3

That's the problem with wars - they lead to arms races.... The sooner western governments start looking into the development of safer recreational drugs (ie no worse than alcohol, and preferably with low dependence), the sooner we can get rid of drug lords, drug wars, and all the killing and suffering that goes with it. Stupid stupid stupid....

>That's the problem with wars - they lead to arms races....

You were high when you wrote that, right?

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#14

Post by roel_v »

shin_lao wrote: post #8
demallien wrote: post #3

That's the problem with wars - they lead to arms races.... The sooner western governments start looking into the development of safer recreational drugs (ie no worse than alcohol, and preferably with low dependence), the sooner we can get rid of drug lords, drug wars, and all the killing and suffering that goes with it. Stupid stupid stupid....

The problem is that you don't want more recreational drugs in your country. Alcohol is already a problem, so is tobacco, do we really want to add more? It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords. They will continue to sell different kind of drugs, because whatever you legalize, there's going to be a market for different kind of substances; and they will simply flood the market with cheaper, no…

/It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords./

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in weeks on the internet, and believe me, that counts for something.

How can they flood the market with cheaper substances? There is little reason a kilo of cocaine should cost much more than a kilo of coffee (ok maybe 5 times more than that because of lower yield per square cultivated meter). Still, the profit in the drug trade comes directly from it being illegal - i.e. the premium that users pay is a risk premium for the producers, traffickers, whole-sellers and retailers. Making production legal would not only make the product much much much safer but it would also reduce profit margins by so much that the people currently employed in this economic sector would be pushed out of the business by regular pharma / foodstuffs companies almost overnight. Along with it, the corruption, assassination and many of the other externalities would disappear, at the same speed.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#15

Post by shin_lao »

roel_v wrote: post #14
shin_lao wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you don't want more recreational drugs in your country. Alcohol is already a problem, so is tobacco, do we really want to add more? It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords. They will continue to sell different kind of drugs, because whatever you legalize, there's going to be a market for different kind of substances; and they will simply flood the market with cheaper, no…

/It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords./ This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in weeks on the internet, and believe me, that counts for something. How can they flood the market with cheaper substances? There is little reason a kilo of cocaine should cost much more than a kilo of coffee (ok maybe 5 times more than that because of lower yield per square cultivated meter). Still, the…

Err... They would simply use their billions to go legit? No damage, just making their business legal.

If I may, let's say there's no more illegal activity related to drug. Would that solve violence? Not really, life of crime is chosen because you don't have options. Only the top drug lords are wealthy with drugs, read Freakonomics for more info about it.

There was an interview from a crime lord who said something along the lines "when people have the possibility to get real jobs, it's very difficult for me to hire".

Drug is one end of the problem, it's also a health problem in itself. But making drug legal won't solve much of violence and misery in the world.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#16

Post by profitoftruth85 »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_Cowboys is a good documentary on the drug trade that has an interesting portion on the use of submersibles in the drug trade. That documentary came out in 2006 and it showed how drug runners had already evolved past these vessels by using containers shaped like driftwood logs and attaching them by long ropes to fishing vessels. The driftwood containers had gps trackers on them so when the coastguard came close they would sink them with the rope attached and another ship would pick them up later. I think its available on thepiratebay.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#17

Post by zalew »

demallien wrote: post #3

That's the problem with wars - they lead to arms races.... The sooner western governments start looking into the development of safer recreational drugs (ie no worse than alcohol, and preferably with low dependence), the sooner we can get rid of drug lords, drug wars, and all the killing and suffering that goes with it. Stupid stupid stupid....

This doc is worth watching http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/if-drugs-were-legal/ (the version on torrents has an after-movie discussion panel). It takes a shot on predicting the pros and cons of drug legalization, with fictional scenarios (including commercially developed recreational drugs you wrote about) and comments.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#18

Post by dagw »

roel_v wrote: post #14
shin_lao wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you don't want more recreational drugs in your country. Alcohol is already a problem, so is tobacco, do we really want to add more? It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords. They will continue to sell different kind of drugs, because whatever you legalize, there's going to be a market for different kind of substances; and they will simply flood the market with cheaper, no…

/It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords./ This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in weeks on the internet, and believe me, that counts for something. How can they flood the market with cheaper substances? There is little reason a kilo of cocaine should cost much more than a kilo of coffee (ok maybe 5 times more than that because of lower yield per square cultivated meter). Still, the…

Criminal gangs make good money selling tobacco and alcohol, which are legal basically everywhere. Sure not as much as illegal drugs, but still good money. Claiming legalization will destroy the illegal drug trade is just as naive as believing legalization will have no effect.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#19

Post by roel_v »

dagw wrote: post #18
roel_v wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords./ This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in weeks on the internet, and believe me, that counts for something. How can they flood the market with cheaper substances? There is little reason a kilo of cocaine should cost much more than a kilo of coffee (ok maybe 5 times more than that because of lower yield per square cultivated meter). Still, the…

Criminal gangs make good money selling tobacco and alcohol, which are legal basically everywhere. Sure not as much as illegal drugs, but still good money. Claiming legalization will destroy the illegal drug trade is just as naive as believing legalization will have no effect.

... well yes because of the market distortion that the taxes on them produce. The only reason people smuggle them are to evade taxes. If you're going to legalize and then tax it so high that it will still cost the same as before the legalization, of course the negative side effects will continue to exist.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#20

Post by roel_v »

shin_lao wrote: post #15
roel_v wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords./ This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in weeks on the internet, and believe me, that counts for something. How can they flood the market with cheaper substances? There is little reason a kilo of cocaine should cost much more than a kilo of coffee (ok maybe 5 times more than that because of lower yield per square cultivated meter). Still, the…

Err... They would simply use their billions to go legit? No damage, just making their business legal. If I may, let's say there's no more illegal activity related to drug. Would that solve violence? Not really, life of crime is chosen because you don't have options. Only the top drug lords are wealthy with drugs, read Freakonomics for more info about it. There was an interview from a crime lord who said something alo…

Of course not. The skills and infrastructure needed to run criminal organization are vastly different from those to run a business in a regular market. Apart from that, I don't see the problem with former drug lords turning into 'regular' companies, as long as they stick to the rules of the 'regular' market, which they'll have to if they want to succeed. It's not like Proctor & Gamble goes around beating people up to maintain their edge in the diaper business.

Secondly, it will of course not solve all violence. But it will at least solve the assassinations (and the collateral damage that comes with it) that directly stem from doing business in a lawless world (there is no way to enforce contracts in the underground except by violence and reputation) and it will take away much of the necessity to commit petty crime by small time criminal junkies.

Depending on which country you look at, 20 to 60+ % of prison populations across the world are incarcerated for drug-related offenses. Are you honestly going to argue that all of those people will switch to robbing banks or other violent crimes when drugs are legalized? There are basically three ways to illegally make money nowadays: drugs, violent crimes (including property crimes which may not be 'violent' in the standard definition such as night-time burglary) and fraud (white collar but also smuggling cigarettes etc.) Many of the people who are now in the drug business will simply not have the opportunity to switch into a different field even if they wanted to!

And yes I did read Freakonomics, I don't know what your point is there. While an entertaining read, a quote from a single guy who may or may not be the 'drug lord' he's claiming hardly makes for a convincing argument to defend current drug policy on. It's quite obvious that 'solving' poverty (whatever that may mean, considering that 'poverty' is such an ill-defined concept) is a good way to eliminate crime. It's not something that can be reached with policy though, at least not in the near term. Drug policy is much more contained and within reach of the legislature (by definition even), if it weren't for all the people who oppose drugs on ideological and/or mis-informed factual grounds.

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