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Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

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Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#61

Post by m0th87 »

justin_vanw wrote: post #23

I have been writing serious, database backed, large dataset, etc etc web applications using Python for about 4 years. Although it may seem like bragging, I probably know the ins and outs and what-have-yous of the python web programming landscape as well as anyone. State of web programming in python: The frameworks: Django: More powerful? No. Faster, more seductive. In the long run you'll outgrow it, if you are any go…

You do not need special db adapters for tornado/twisted. The one that comes out of the box for tornado is a thin wrapper over the mysqldb library, and I've seen mysqldb used in twisted applications.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#62

Post by jasonlotito »

benno wrote: post #38
bandushrew wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but a good developer can write good, clean code in either one. Every language/IDE combination encourages a 'default' coding approach, I agree that the PHP 'default' coding approach tends to be to create a hopeless muddle of assorted, random crap. OTOH, which would you rather have...a coder who is currently being 'forced' to write marginally better code in Python than he would in PHP because of the language constructs…

BS. Can PHP do this? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/08/01.html (In fact the latest version of PHP (5.3) can, but for years PHP has been lacking this, so the point stands.) No amount of "good code design" can work around core features that are missing from a language. The argument that all languages are more or less equal is as nonsensical as saying all cars are more or less equal, or all guns are more or le…

> (In fact the latest version of PHP (5.3) can, but for years PHP has been lacking this, so the point stands.)

Actually, it's been able to do that for a LONG time. Pretty sure (99.9% sure here) you could do that in PHP 4, and probably in PHP 3 as well (but really, it's been so long, forgive me for not remembering). Different syntax, of course, but yeah, you could do that.

PHP 5.3 essentially just made it more explicit.

Edit: When I say different syntax, I mean slightly different syntax, obvious, because it's Python being reference. The end result, however, is the same.

And, if I may be so bold, the PHP way prior to PHP 5.3 (though still supported), encouraged a cleaner implementation then the 'Cook' example demonstrated in the link above.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#63

Post by _3ex7 »

TheSmoke wrote: post #44

I'm happy that I'm developing my web apps with Python. I have used almost all Python web frameworks out there. So let me explain my experience. Django - Until 1.2 Django was a total headache but with 1.2 it really is a great tool to develop web applications. No reason not to use it unless you feel something's missing. Django has an amazing community with very helpful people. web2py - web2py lets you create apps very…

>however i am not using werkzeug anymore as i don't like the way people act in #pocoo on freenode. this is the only reason i am not using werkzeug. they are ignorant and i don't like it.

Care to explain? I dont lurk in #pocoo but I am confused as to why you are putting an entire room on blast.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#64

Post by adrianscott »

ANINDIAN wrote: post #18

Use Python + Django hosted on Google App engine It will remove all your worries of paying any thing unless you get million hits per month!

I concur. Also you will be disciplined into writing scalable code and will not have to deal with operating system issues, setting up servers, configuring db's etc., so you can focus on programming.

(If you want an invite to Fosdev for trying out GAE quickly, let me know.)

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#66

Post by bandushrew »

benno wrote: post #57
bandushrew wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, closures are good. we really do appear to be having two different discussions, Im neither claiming that PHP is 'better' than Python nor am I arguing against functional programming. I am simply arguing that the most important thing in a project is the quality of the developers, not the language they chose; and that given a good developer and a choice between PHP and Python I would almost certainly find the relat…

"I am simply arguing that the most important thing in a project is the quality of the developers, not the language they chose" I agree with the first part, but I think the language choice is integral to just how good those good developers can be. I don't believe for a minute that a great developer can develop in PHP without being seriously crippled by it. Functional programming has a tremendous amount of value outsid…

"Functional programming has a tremendous amount of value outside of async/multi-threaded environments that cannot simply be replaced by other means."

Functional programming, or closures? I said: "Closures in particular are a very powerful tool in async/multi-threaded environments, but in the stateless/sync environment of a web application environment, they collapse down to syntactical sugar, and solve nothing that cannot be solved in other ways."

I made absolutely no statement regarding functional programming in general, and the label 'functional programming' applies to a much broader set of topics than just closures, so I am entirely at a loss as to why you think it makes sense to 'rebut' my statement about closures with something about functional programming?

"There are real limits to the amount of modularity one can achieve without functional programming, and modularity is key to great programming."

I entirely agree, modularity is good.

"The state and history of the software industry at large only demonstrates that the majority of software developers in key technical positions within the industry are and have been less than great."

indeed.

"But if your argument is that PHP is "good enough" given a bunch of average developers..."

LOL.

It really wasn't.

Im glad you like functional languages and closures, you really should check out Scheme - its even MORE functional than Python.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#67

Post by GeneralMaximus »

Some perspective if you're using Python: I've mostly done desktop apps (ObjC + Cocoa and C++ + Qt). Some time ago I decided to learn web programming. I'd been programming Python for quite some time so, unsurprisingly, I started learning Django. I never felt at home with the framework. This might just be me, but Django has too much magic -- which can be disconcerting if you like to know exactly what your framework is doing behind the scenes.

A month ago I started dabbling in Pylons. It's the best framework I've ever used. The Pylons Book is great, if a bit outdated. The official docs are nice (they seem nice to me; I've been burned by Apple's shitty documentation). The entire framework basically consists of glue code to tie together best-of-breed Python libraries: Mako, SQLAlchemy, Beaker, WebOb, PythonPaste, FormEncode, HTMLFill, Routes. Oh, and it's all WSGI. WSGI is the best thing to ever happen to Python web development. You should at least skim the WSGI PEP (PEP 333) if you're serious about Python web development.

Next, I'm planning to check out Werkzeug. It's an even tinier set of libraries that allow you to, in effect, build your own framework. If you're building a simple REST-based service, Werkzeug is what you need.

I also know some people who swear by Web2Py. I haven't tried it myself, but I hear it's great for quick and dirty webapps.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#68

Post by bandushrew »

moe wrote: post #58
bandushrew wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL 'No true scotsman...' FWIW my hiring process rarely includes a request that candidates propose the language that they will perform their work in. (oh, and its not an esoteric question. It is a deeply practical one. I desperately want to hire good, pragmatic coders, not people who are only capable of writing good code if they are in an environment that makes it easy)

Well, you probably want your coders to create and maintain an environment that makes it easy to write good code in. PHP has no place in such an environment. Moreover it's highly unlikely that a good coder would apply for a PHP job in first place.

heh. especially if you and I decide to define "good coder" as "someone who wouldn't apply for a PHP job in the first place"

that would make it IMPOSSIBLE. muah ha ha.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#69

Post by gte910h »

It entirely comes down to who knows it (so when you hire, what type of people you get).

PHP has a lower skilled mean programmer who does it. This is not necessarily a bad thing if cheaper programmer is better than better programmer for your company.

PHP is easier to get going, python has more compelling libraries once you do. Python libraries are often better maintained than their PHP brethren, and the debugging stack for python is much more compelling.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#70

Post by frognibble »

justin_vanw wrote: post #23

I have been writing serious, database backed, large dataset, etc etc web applications using Python for about 4 years. Although it may seem like bragging, I probably know the ins and outs and what-have-yous of the python web programming landscape as well as anyone. State of web programming in python: The frameworks: Django: More powerful? No. Faster, more seductive. In the long run you'll outgrow it, if you are any go…

You don't need special db adapters for Tornado. Idiomatic Tornado apps only use async when blocking on an external event (fetching a page from other site, waiting for another user to do something). Db and file system blocking is handled by running more instances of the Tornado application.
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