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Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

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Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#31

Post by bkrausz »

bandushrew wrote: post #30
moe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, the language doesn't matter. I disagree. Python, by design, makes it hard to write bad code. PHP, by design, encourages bad code.

but a good developer can write good, clean code in either one. Every language/IDE combination encourages a 'default' coding approach, I agree that the PHP 'default' coding approach tends to be to create a hopeless muddle of assorted, random crap. OTOH, which would you rather have...a coder who is currently being 'forced' to write marginally better code in Python than he would in PHP because of the language constructs…

Thank you! For some reason I always take flak for this position, great to know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#32

Post by BerislavLopac »

justin_vanw wrote: post #24
BerislavLopac wrote: post #17

How about choosing one that your team knows better? Your startup's app is not a good place to learn new technology, as proven by Reddit and Twitter, among others.

Yea, Reddit and Twitter are great examples of places that failed because they were afraid to learn new technology? Wait. That failed because they tried to learn and implement things in unfamiliar technologies? Oh, wait, what?

No, they tried to build the app with a technology they wanted to learn {Reddit : Lisp, Twitter: Rails} and then had to rewrite it (mostly) from scratch when that didn't work out {Reddit: Python, Twitter: Scala}.

Neither failed, because they were smart enough to know when to ditch. God knows how many startups failed because they didn't know that.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#33

Post by BerislavLopac »

justin_vanw wrote: post #23

I have been writing serious, database backed, large dataset, etc etc web applications using Python for about 4 years. Although it may seem like bragging, I probably know the ins and outs and what-have-yous of the python web programming landscape as well as anyone. State of web programming in python: The frameworks: Django: More powerful? No. Faster, more seductive. In the long run you'll outgrow it, if you are any go…

Apparently, you like to write your own low-level stuff, and that's okay. But in my experience in Django there is very rarely any need for that.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#34

Post by moe »

bandushrew wrote: post #30
moe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, the language doesn't matter. I disagree. Python, by design, makes it hard to write bad code. PHP, by design, encourages bad code.

but a good developer can write good, clean code in either one. Every language/IDE combination encourages a 'default' coding approach, I agree that the PHP 'default' coding approach tends to be to create a hopeless muddle of assorted, random crap. OTOH, which would you rather have...a coder who is currently being 'forced' to write marginally better code in Python than he would in PHP because of the language constructs…

a coder who is currently being 'forced' to write marginally better code in Python than he would in PHP because of the language constructs, or a coder who understands good code design and knows how to apply it?

That's an esoteric question.

A good coder wouldn't choose PHP in first place, unless there are pressing reasons (i.e. a legacy code-base).

Consequently you can speed up your hiring process simply by weeding out candidates who propose to use PHP.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#35

Post by bandushrew »

moe wrote: post #34
bandushrew wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but a good developer can write good, clean code in either one. Every language/IDE combination encourages a 'default' coding approach, I agree that the PHP 'default' coding approach tends to be to create a hopeless muddle of assorted, random crap. OTOH, which would you rather have...a coder who is currently being 'forced' to write marginally better code in Python than he would in PHP because of the language constructs…

a coder who is currently being 'forced' to write marginally better code in Python than he would in PHP because of the language constructs, or a coder who understands good code design and knows how to apply it? That's an esoteric question. A good coder wouldn't choose PHP in first place, unless there are pressing reasons (i.e. a legacy code-base). Consequently you can speed up your hiring process simply by weeding out…

LOL

'No true scotsman...'

FWIW my hiring process rarely includes a request that candidates propose the language that they will perform their work in.

(oh, and its not an esoteric question. It is a deeply practical one. I desperately want to hire good, pragmatic coders, not people who are only capable of writing good code if they are in an environment that makes it easy)

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#36

Post by zepolen »

justin_vanw wrote: post #23

I have been writing serious, database backed, large dataset, etc etc web applications using Python for about 4 years. Although it may seem like bragging, I probably know the ins and outs and what-have-yous of the python web programming landscape as well as anyone. State of web programming in python: The frameworks: Django: More powerful? No. Faster, more seductive. In the long run you'll outgrow it, if you are any go…

> and it was at my urging that the Banquet library (a common interface to all template systems) was discarded

Buffet.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#37

Post by benno »

bandushrew wrote: post #29
benno wrote: post #28

If you have to ask this question, you're out of your technical depth. The best thing you can do is promote the guy who's clamoring the loudest to steer clear of PHP to technical lead, and defer all future technical decisions to him. The language is just a tool. Consider car racing. If you have a poor driver in the fastest car, it won't make a difference. No matter how fast the car is that he's driving, he's going to…

"The guy on your team who is the most against using PHP is likely the one who best understands the ways in which PHP will limit your team. You do not have the deep technical understanding to make these judgments, and for that reason (without taking months of hard work to gain such understanding) you should defer to him." sorry, what? the guy on his team who is most against using PHP could equally well be an idiot who…

Of course he could be.

I don't envy the position of any non-technical person that has to make key technical decisions on a technical project.

Ultimately it takes a good developer to spot a good developer, so a non-technical person seeking to build a "robust web application" starts at a huge disadvantage.

Without understanding the pros and cons of each language choice, all he can do is gamble on finding a smarter person than himself that he can trust. I'm advocating he choose the anti-PHP guy, slightly tongue-in-cheek, because given the limited amount of information presented, that choice gives him the best odds.

Being in the position of having to make such a bet is less than desirable, but given his lack of technical knowledge, what else would you have him do?

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#38

Post by benno »

bandushrew wrote: post #30
moe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, the language doesn't matter. I disagree. Python, by design, makes it hard to write bad code. PHP, by design, encourages bad code.

but a good developer can write good, clean code in either one. Every language/IDE combination encourages a 'default' coding approach, I agree that the PHP 'default' coding approach tends to be to create a hopeless muddle of assorted, random crap. OTOH, which would you rather have...a coder who is currently being 'forced' to write marginally better code in Python than he would in PHP because of the language constructs…

BS. Can PHP do this? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/08/01.html

(In fact the latest version of PHP (5.3) can, but for years PHP has been lacking this, so the point stands.)

No amount of "good code design" can work around core features that are missing from a language.

The argument that all languages are more or less equal is as nonsensical as saying all cars are more or less equal, or all guns are more or less equal -- it ignores the tremendous advantage that using good tools can provide.

Re: Ask HN: How will it impact my webapp if it is written in Python instead of PHP.

#40

Post by anthonyb »

justin_vanw wrote: post #23

I have been writing serious, database backed, large dataset, etc etc web applications using Python for about 4 years. Although it may seem like bragging, I probably know the ins and outs and what-have-yous of the python web programming landscape as well as anyone. State of web programming in python: The frameworks: Django: More powerful? No. Faster, more seductive. In the long run you'll outgrow it, if you are any go…

I'd have to disagree with you here. In fact, my experience is almost exactly the opposite.

Django is incredibly easy to get going, and you can rewrite bits of it as you need to. It's reasonably easy to switch out the templating language if you need to, and I haven't had any problems like you describe with the ORM or admin app. For prototyping apps I wouldn't use anything else. I'm currently running with nginx/FastCGI and haven't seen any problems.

Pylons and SQLAlchemy, on the other hand, I found hideous - lots and lots of boilerplate, particularly when setting up models, weird tracebacks that had no relation to the original problem, poorly integrated bits - I basically couldn't populate databases from a unit test, then run a controller, then check the results, since SQLAlchemy would lose the connection after the controller.

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