Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#121

Post by namlem » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #79

throwayit wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this would work well in theory, do you see either political party working to build a stronger "bill of labor rights" for Americans? Americans don't have basic labor rights like mandated vacation, paternity/maternity leave, sick leave, etc. I don't see the American political system as fixing this anytime soon.

Why is mandated vacation considered a "right?" It's a right that I don't have to work? That should be an agreement between the employer and employee and not the business of government. I'm an independent contractor and I don't get vacation paid by anyone except me. If I don't work, I don't get paid. I'm not sure why that's controversial. Should a restaurant customer pay for meals they didn't actually order just becau…

Because all workers should be entitled to a minimum standard of living, even if they are in a field with a labor surplus.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#122

Post by mugrimm » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 11:13 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #112

k-mcgrady wrote: post #65

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

The part of I don't like is that unions are given monopoly status within the company. Most of the unions I've seen aren't voluntary. When I was in grad school, I was forced to pay dues into the union. I don't like that. I think there should be as many unions as employees like. I don't understand how the union can be understood to be negotiating on my behalf if I can't choose not to have them negotiate on my behalf. O…

You know there's unions all over Europe, some countries essentially require it by default.

Unions can get fired by their employees, in fact it's something that has happened. Their pressure is very direct, they have far more invested in the company working than management more often than not. If a CEO loses their company but has drawn a few mil from it in savings, they have a relatively easier path to rebuilding themselves than employees who have far less wealth.

>To the extent that employees have collective bargaining power, they can just use it. Get a group together, write a letter to Elon, and threaten to quit.

You've literally just described a union. The reason they're compulsory in union companies is they threaten ruining production if non-union members get used, as a way of giving themselves more bargaining power. The reason you're required to pay dues is the union is required BY LAW to pay for your legal defense and benefits whether you want to be a member or not, so it seems kind of mean to not pay for that.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#123

Post by mugrimm » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 11:18 PM UTC

ohitsdom wrote: post #92

k-mcgrady wrote: post #65

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

I'm in the US. I get that on paper unions are good, but I've always heard bad things about them. Recent anecdotes/experience I've encountered: - Factory layoffs HAD to be done by seniority rather than merit. We knowingly laid off top performers, just because they were newer to the company (due to union contract rules). - Vendors at a tech conference got in trouble for moving their display tables a few feet because th…

The company has a say in each of these events, it just chooses to not use it. These are the kinds of things that occur in negotiations. The issue is they have to give something to.

For example, if you want layoffs performed by merit, you'd need a union board to verify those metrics and agree to them, with the addition of a bonus for those who performed well enough to stay or some stock in the company.

Vendors moving stuff is a bit harder because if they break some shit, the union will be forced to cover them by law despite the fact their people had nothing to do with it. They'd probably relax it if their company paid for insurance that covered anyone and everyone doing work on the premises.

Promotions and raises can again have more company input but the union would want more money for people who are promoted. They choose not to pay it and deal with the system as is.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#124

Post by mugrimm » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 11:20 PM UTC

Inconel wrote: post #104

grecy wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please give some examples of other types of people that are critical of unions, and why they are critical ?

Disclaimer: While I don't work at Tesla I do work as a technician at another Musk company, SpaceX, so I'm not exactly impartial. I'm broadly supportive of private sector unions, and I think it would be great if the relationship between unions and employers in the US would more closely match what I've observed in Europe and Japan. With that being said, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be supportive of unions in ge…

Are you aware Tesla had the worst safety record in the entire auto industry and still won't release it's safety record from prior years? If Musk wanted to prevent a union, he shouldn't have gone so cheap.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#125

Post by mugrimm » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 11:21 PM UTC

enknamel wrote: post #46

greekyogurt21 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Made an account just to say that I couldn't tell if this post was sarcasm or not. Really? You don't want "...tyranny of the masses demanding ever more pay, benefits, etc until a company is bled dry", but you're ok with "..government enforced guarantees of decent treatment."? Strong fucking everything

Unions ruin nearly every company they touch Government unions are even worse because the government is largely able to support a nearly unlimited budget. Let's not forget that unions are not opt-in or opt-out. If you work in a union shop you are in that union and their dues are automatically taken directly out of your pay. You don't like what your union is doing? Tough luck. Suddenly you need to negotiate with the pe…

Are you aware there are entire countries where Unions are practically required for your wages?

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#126

Post by mugrimm » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 11:22 PM UTC

enknamel wrote: post #59

halestock wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are the reason we have "government enforced guarantees of decent treatment".

Yes. Now why do we need unions if their mission has been accomplished? Their purpose has been served.

Noted socialist publication Forbes disagrees with your assessment that they've been accomplished, specifically citing Tesla's insanely bad worker safety numbers:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarquet/2017/06/04/elon-mu...

Maybe if Musk spent time on his endeavor instead of throwing his time willy nilly in each direction he could have prevented a union. Cest la vive

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#127

Post by true_tuna » Thu, Aug 03, 2017, 5:34 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #102

beaconstudios wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people can be critical of unions without being a puppet or a "wealthy bourgeoisie". Not everything is so black-and-white, especially politics.

Can you please give some examples of other types of people that are critical of unions, and why they are critical ?

1) In New York, union rules say I'm not allowed to plug anything into an outlet. I literally have to call an electrician to do that for me. Makes it a pain to work in the data center that way. So I sit there for an hour twiddling my thumbs waiting for a dude (or lady) to come plug in my rack/router/server for me. Feels like a waste of my time and his or hers, but hey, what does he care? He's hourly. Except it really is a waste of time, read inefficient, read reduced productivity. So people who might be critical of unions? People who are affected by and annoyed by inefficiency.

2) Next time you're in New Orleans read the passenger "rights" placard in a taxi. It's absurd and laughable. Protectionist rules there protect drivers behaving badly. You will be scammed every time you go there, if they don't try to get you on the way in they'll try on the way out. You get bonus points if they try both times. People who might oppose unions? People who've been burned by unions protecting bad behavior.

3) Police unions protect Police officers behaving badly. This prevents conversations about proper and improper behavior, which fosters bad behavior, which damages public trust and safety. Who supports public safety and trustworthy armed public servants? Hopefully everyone.

I'm all for workers rights but sometimes worker protections protect bad behavior which can lead to negative emotions about the process.