Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.
Having second-hand knowledge of a public teachers union I heard more many stories of terrible workers who could never get fired. That is the reason I'm not very supportive of unions.
Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
101–110 of 127 posts
Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
One of the major goals of the USA is to make corporations (and their owners) obscenely rich. Unions are one tiny attempt by the common-man to even that out a fraction, and is therefore evil by definition, because it goes against the above point. Anyone against unions is either a) an obscenely rich owner who doesn't want to share, or b) has been tricked into thinking making rich people richer will help them in some ex…
people can be critical of unions without being a puppet or a "wealthy bourgeoisie". Not everything is so black-and-white, especially politics.
Can you please give some examples of other types of people that are critical of unions, and why they are critical ?
Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
people can be critical of unions without being a puppet or a "wealthy bourgeoisie". Not everything is so black-and-white, especially politics.
Can you please give some examples of other types of people that are critical of unions, and why they are critical ?
I'm critical of unions for a number of reasons, including artificially preventing automation and technological progress in order to prevent redundancies and pointless mandates like ensuring that only union appointed electricians can plug in a socket. If you think the only people critical of unions are your stereotypical evil capitalists then you might want to look up the arguments people make against them - one can't defend a position if they don't know the opposition's arguments.
Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
people can be critical of unions without being a puppet or a "wealthy bourgeoisie". Not everything is so black-and-white, especially politics.
Can you please give some examples of other types of people that are critical of unions, and why they are critical ?
Disclaimer: While I don't work at Tesla I do work as a technician at another Musk company, SpaceX, so I'm not exactly impartial.
I'm broadly supportive of private sector unions, and I think it would be great if the relationship between unions and employers in the US would more closely match what I've observed in Europe and Japan. With that being said, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be supportive of unions in general, while being critical of certain aspects of them.
My own criticism of unions comes both from my personal experience working in a union shop, as well as second hand info I get from several close friends currently working in union shops at the Port of LA/LB and various municipal and private employers in the LA/OC area. My personal criticisms stem from what I viewed as an almost total inability to hold more senior employees accountable for performance, an extremely rigid organizational structure that made it very difficult/impossible for a low level employee like myself to try and get into new positions based on work and effort rather than strict seniority, and a very lax attitude towards harassment and discrimination towards those who were not white or Hispanic, and especially towards those who weren't heterosexual. Sprinkle in a heavy dose of nepotism at the top and things got bad enough that I actually quit and went back to working a crappy retail job.
Now I realize that these things could just as well, and in fact do, occur in non-union shops, which is why I still support unions in general, but again, I don't think they are above critique.
My view of public employee unions, particularly for public safety employees like police and fire, is more philosophically opposed.
Edited for punctuation.
Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
#105Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.
I'm in the US. I get that on paper unions are good, but I've always heard bad things about them. Recent anecdotes/experience I've encountered: - Factory layoffs HAD to be done by seniority rather than merit. We knowingly laid off top performers, just because they were newer to the company (due to union contract rules). - Vendors at a tech conference got in trouble for moving their display tables a few feet because th…
I see a lot of the seniority stuff in Japan. I have friends who are top performers in their department yet are stuck making copies for hours for their seniors due to their age. Nobody dares to question it.
Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you please give some examples of other types of people that are critical of unions, and why they are critical ?
Disclaimer: While I don't work at Tesla I do work as a technician at another Musk company, SpaceX, so I'm not exactly impartial. I'm broadly supportive of private sector unions, and I think it would be great if the relationship between unions and employers in the US would more closely match what I've observed in Europe and Japan. With that being said, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be supportive of unions in ge…
Thanks for the detailed reply, I appreciate it.
I am in total agreement with you - Unions are good, but nothing is above constructive criticism.
After all, the goal is constant improvement.
Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you please give some examples of other types of people that are critical of unions, and why they are critical ?
Disclaimer: While I don't work at Tesla I do work as a technician at another Musk company, SpaceX, so I'm not exactly impartial. I'm broadly supportive of private sector unions, and I think it would be great if the relationship between unions and employers in the US would more closely match what I've observed in Europe and Japan. With that being said, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be supportive of unions in ge…
I'm surprised that unions would have a problem with racism and homophobia given they're usually run by pretty far-left-minded people.
Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you please give some examples of other types of people that are critical of unions, and why they are critical ?
I'm critical of unions for a number of reasons, including artificially preventing automation and technological progress in order to prevent redundancies and pointless mandates like ensuring that only union appointed electricians can plug in a socket. If you think the only people critical of unions are your stereotypical evil capitalists then you might want to look up the arguments people make against them - one can't…
> one can't defend a position if they don't know the opposition's arguments.
I agree, that's why I asked for other people's augments against them.
And of course you are correct, unions are not perfect and sometimes are downright stupid (your two examples). Just because something is not perfect is not a reason to not have it.
It's just a good reason to improve it.
On the whole, unions (including their sometimes stupid rules) are better that not unions, and I have never seen a compelling argument otherwise (other than the two reasons I mentioned in my original post, which are not valid)
Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm critical of unions for a number of reasons, including artificially preventing automation and technological progress in order to prevent redundancies and pointless mandates like ensuring that only union appointed electricians can plug in a socket. If you think the only people critical of unions are your stereotypical evil capitalists then you might want to look up the arguments people make against them - one can't…
> one can't defend a position if they don't know the opposition's arguments. I agree, that's why I asked for other people's augments against them. And of course you are correct, unions are not perfect and sometimes are downright stupid (your two examples). Just because something is not perfect is not a reason to not have it. It's just a good reason to improve it. On the whole, unions (including their sometimes stupid…
I agree, and I never suggested that unions should be banned or otherwise prevented from existing. I think unions should have a right to exist but shouldn't necessarily be propped up by legislation that gives them the upper hand in negotiations (e.g. anti-strikebreaker legislation).
I think unions are positive or negative on a case-by-case basis. Given the value of human life, safety-critical industries almost always benefit from union presence but Hollywood for example seems to take on unions as a burgeoning cost of doing business without them providing much in the way of real value. I don't think they're universally good or bad.
Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Unions are one of the main reasons we had such a huge American auto crisis just a few years ago." Or, viewed through another lens: the auto workers' union is the organization that prevented auto workers from being squeezed tighter and tighter without end. If they, the workers, hadn't banded together, the owners and shareholders could keep cutting their wages, could keep failing to uphold their obligations to the wor…
"destroying their bodies for dollars per hour" $31 per hour for a non-skilled assembly line worker. That's $31 per hour + very good benefits. http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/ Perhaps we should demand government mandate a $100 per hour salary? I don't know, what's "fair" in your mind? Why not $200 per hour? The truth is that many of these auto workers make more money than many of the shareholders. It isn't…
> Perhaps we should demand government mandate a $100 per hour salary? I don't know, what's "fair" in your mind? Why not $200 per hour?
"Fair" is the value that workers' labor generates. It's probably a lot more than $31 in the case of autos.