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Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

businessinsider.com

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Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#81

Post by briandear »

Frondo wrote: post #49
enknamel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a shareholder this would really put me off. Unions are one of the main reasons we had such a huge American auto crisis just a few years ago. I'm largely anti-union anyways. We should have government enforced guarantees of decent treatment. We shouldn't have a tyranny of the masses demanding ever more pay, benefits, etc until a company is bled dry.

"Unions are one of the main reasons we had such a huge American auto crisis just a few years ago." Or, viewed through another lens: the auto workers' union is the organization that prevented auto workers from being squeezed tighter and tighter without end. If they, the workers, hadn't banded together, the owners and shareholders could keep cutting their wages, could keep failing to uphold their obligations to the wor…

"destroying their bodies for dollars per hour"

$31 per hour for a non-skilled assembly line worker.

That's $31 per hour + very good benefits.

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/

Perhaps we should demand government mandate a $100 per hour salary? I don't know, what's "fair" in your mind? Why not $200 per hour?

The truth is that many of these auto workers make more money than many of the shareholders. It isn't like "the shareholders" are ensconced in castles counting doubloons. These shareholders are teachers, fire fighters, normal people who invest in retirement funds or other retail investments. Sure there are a few rich people investing, but acting like shareholders are some kind of privileged class is disingenuous.

Why should the factory worker have more rights than the old lady living off her General Motors dividends?

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#82

Post by DrScump »

Frondo wrote: post #53
enknamel wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions ruin nearly every company they touch Government unions are even worse because the government is largely able to support a nearly unlimited budget. Let's not forget that unions are not opt-in or opt-out. If you work in a union shop you are in that union and their dues are automatically taken directly out of your pay. You don't like what your union is doing? Tough luck. Suddenly you need to negotiate with the pe…

You're being downvoted because this isn't true. No one is ever legally obligated to join a union in the U.S. You may be required to pay dues, since the union affords you protections even if you're not a member, but you'll never be required to join it. It's also not true that "don't like what your union is doing, tough luck". Unions are democratic organizations. Don't like what it's doing? Take your case to your fello…

  No one is ever legally obligated to join a union in the U.S.
To "join": not officially. There have been cases of workers not having applications forwarded without including signed provisional cards (known as "card check" organizing[0]).

There is agency shop organizing in which workers have to pay full dues but do not have to join the union. It can be seen as a distinction without a difference to those who have to pay the dues.

Then there's full right-to-work situations, where unions cannot compel workers to join the union or pay dues as a prerequisite to work in that shop.

[0] http://www.heritage.org/jobs-and-labor/report/how-union-card...

[Edit]: closed shop definitional error

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#83

Post by DrScump »

halestock wrote: post #51
enknamel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a shareholder this would really put me off. Unions are one of the main reasons we had such a huge American auto crisis just a few years ago. I'm largely anti-union anyways. We should have government enforced guarantees of decent treatment. We shouldn't have a tyranny of the masses demanding ever more pay, benefits, etc until a company is bled dry.

Unions are the reason we have "government enforced guarantees of decent treatment".

OHSA powers don't apply in the absence of a union?

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#84

Post by DrScump »

jackvalentine wrote: post #70
enknamel wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Now why do we need unions if their mission has been accomplished? Their purpose has been served.

> Now why do we need unions if their mission has been accomplished? To ensure that those protections are enforced. To ensure those protections aren't rolled back. To advocate for their membership in a changing economy where their work won't remain static for 40 years. Maybe it's because I'm not American but is it really so hard to see why having someone to advocate for the people in the economy is a good thing? After…

What makes you think that union leaders advocate primarily for "the people" as opposed to their own best interests?

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#85

Post by jackvalentine »

DrScump wrote: post #84
jackvalentine wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now why do we need unions if their mission has been accomplished? To ensure that those protections are enforced. To ensure those protections aren't rolled back. To advocate for their membership in a changing economy where their work won't remain static for 40 years. Maybe it's because I'm not American but is it really so hard to see why having someone to advocate for the people in the economy is a good thing? After…

What makes you think that union leaders advocate primarily for "the people" as opposed to their own best interests?

They often do either.

It's up to the members of a union to take sufficient interest in it that there are appropriate and effective governance structures in place - in the same way that it's up to the shareholders of a business to do the same.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#86

Post by vacri »

enknamel wrote: post #56
Frondo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted because this isn't true. No one is ever legally obligated to join a union in the U.S. You may be required to pay dues, since the union affords you protections even if you're not a member, but you'll never be required to join it. It's also not true that "don't like what your union is doing, tough luck". Unions are democratic organizations. Don't like what it's doing? Take your case to your fello…

Actually you are wrong. You can be legally obligated to join a union in any non Right to Work state. Unions almost always have a union security clause forcing employers to only accept their members who are in good standing. Unions are also not very democratic. They are democratic in principle but once again fall to the tyranny of the majority. If you are a minority in a union you are completely screwed unless you can…

> well their original purpose was racism pure and simple

Exactly how much work-oriented racism was there in 14th century England, when trade unions were first outlawed? Or in industrial age Britain?

Stop spreading your crazy FUD.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#87

Post by DrScump »

unabridged wrote: post #73
enknamel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a shareholder this would really put me off. Unions are one of the main reasons we had such a huge American auto crisis just a few years ago. I'm largely anti-union anyways. We should have government enforced guarantees of decent treatment. We shouldn't have a tyranny of the masses demanding ever more pay, benefits, etc until a company is bled dry.

Surely you think an employee should be able to quit his job, become a contractor, and charge the company more money. A union is just all the employees quitting and starting a consulting group.

... which then has power to set wage thresholds and working conditions for every other hourly worker in the company, present and future.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#88

Post by beaconstudios »

grecy wrote: post #77
k-mcgrady wrote: post #65

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

One of the major goals of the USA is to make corporations (and their owners) obscenely rich. Unions are one tiny attempt by the common-man to even that out a fraction, and is therefore evil by definition, because it goes against the above point. Anyone against unions is either a) an obscenely rich owner who doesn't want to share, or b) has been tricked into thinking making rich people richer will help them in some ex…

people can be critical of unions without being a puppet or a "wealthy bourgeoisie". Not everything is so black-and-white, especially politics.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#89

Post by DrScump »

losteverything wrote: post #36

Does anyone know (or provide link) to current worker salary, benefits and work rules? I would bet they already have adopted most of the obvious union won rules such as tenure, scheduling, overtime, sick leave, time off, differential, bidding, etc... Even Wal-Mart has adopted policies that are staples in some bargained areas. Just not "no termination clause" among others My experience says union national leadership ca…

May we ask which union(s) you have been a member of?

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#90

Post by neonhomer »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #65

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

Having second-hand knowledge of a public teachers union I heard more many stories of terrible workers who could never get fired. That is the reason I'm not very supportive of unions.
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