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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

441–449 of 449 posts

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nah, I don't think it is a false dichotomy in this case. It seems unlikely to me in the extreme that China is going to change its policies in response to pressure from some foreign company, even one as large as Apple. That is still a false dichotomy. They don't necessarily have to change the policy in order to render it ineffective. Apple is full of smart people. They could think of something if they had to . Other…

> Apple is full of smart people. They could think of something if they had to. Funny that is the _exact_ same argument that politicians have made about secure backdoors in communication software for use by "law enforcement only". > free speech and privacy Why is that doing wrong? The causality is based in Western humanistic moral belief. You simply should not force your morals on other cultures and countries.

> Funny that is the _exact_ same argument that politicians have made about secure backdoors in communication software for use by "law enforcement only".

The government's argument is that we have the ingenuity to land a man on the moon, therefore it should be no problem to land a man on the sun.

You're arguing that because we can't land a man on the sun, there is no way to land a man on the moon.

The reason the government uses that argument is that it's generally true. Application of resources and ingenuity solves problems. Secure encryption back doors are in the exception box next to perpetual motion machines and faster than light communication.

Subverting censorship is not. People do that all the time.

> Why is that doing wrong? The causality is based in Western humanistic moral belief.

It is doing wrong because free speech is the best known method of preventing civil war. War being right at the top of the list of the most evil things in human experience.

And we're talking about Western beliefs because we're talking about Western people demanding Western values of a Western company.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#442
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nah, I don't think it is a false dichotomy in this case. It seems unlikely to me in the extreme that China is going to change its policies in response to pressure from some foreign company, even one as large as Apple. That is still a false dichotomy. They don't necessarily have to change the policy in order to render it ineffective. Apple is full of smart people. They could think of something if they had to . Other…

Setting aside our debate about if free speech is an absolute, cross-cultural moral right or more of a trade-off with other values up to each culture to decide... Apple itself is a long way from being the free speech crusader you are hoping for; in fact, they are clearly quite pro-censorship: just look at the App store. It's ridiculously censored! The refusals to approve the drone strike app Metadata+ and the Twitter-…

> Apple itself is a long way from being the free speech crusader you are hoping for; in fact, they are clearly quite pro-censorship: just look at the App store. It's ridiculously censored!

This a "two wrongs don't make a right" type situation.

In fact, if the pressure from this could get them to stop doing that, all the better.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#443
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't agree to their rules you don't play in their sandbox. And if you make choices they have consequences. Those consequences include that people in the west will lose respect for your company, complain about it, patronize competitors, propose laws to punish it, etc. If that puts the company in a bind, good. They're a multi-billion dollar international corporation. They have to choose between morals and pro…

Consequences and hypothetical punishments are not related to the actual behavior of the company but to its perception by the consumers. If the company can move the spotlight away or otherwise change the narrative, they can easily contain it. It has more to do with the limited amount of attention that can be given to any issue at any one time than with morals themselves.

You're arguing that from a realpolitik perspective, it may be more profitable for them to do the wrong thing and then spend money on PR.

What I'm saying is that that's the problem and what we should be doing is devising ways to thwart that outcome instead of forgiving them just because their betrayal was expected to be profitable.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#444
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you're saying. The alternative is not doing business in China at all, how would they sell more phones in China by getting out of the Chinese market, vs staying in China and complying with the government's demands? I'm very curious about what your market research indicates, because it sounds like a contradiction.

I think what xbmcuser is saying is that Apple is screwed either way: don't pull the apps and be kicked out of China altogether, or pull the apps and lose a competitive advantage. Not that Apple would lose _more_ this way, simply that they still lose.

Yeah that's what I meant either way Apple is going to loose it stays in China or not. They already stopped weechat Payments etc now they are stopping vpn apps so another reason for people in china not to use Apple. I bet in a few years or so China will make using foreign phones about national pride once that happens all other phone manufacturers including Apple will be sidelined.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#445
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, what you mean by "having an app store" is "reverting 40 years of established software usage best practice and downgrade to dictatorial way where a central company can control everything". Words have power. "App store" sounds up-beat, friendly and inclusive. But the rules behind what Apple has established that "App store" actually means are anything but.

Apple didn't invent the app store and weren't many mobile phones before the iPhone (running J2ME or whatever) even more restrictive? Also, Android doesn't restrict side-loading in this way so I disagree that restricting side-loading is an essential feature of an app store as commonly understood.

No, phones before the iPhone running J2ME had side-loading. Some carrier turned that off, but if you bought directly from the manufacturers you got a phone that you could control and do anything with by yourself, without any third party stopping you. Manufacturers felt confident that their J2ME sandboxing stopped apps from doing anything evil.

I feel like you didn't really answer my point, though. I criticize you for using an upbeat word to make a dictatorial system sound good. And you counter by talking about something entirely else, word definition and word history.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#446
I love this summary from n-gate.com about this thread

"Apple complies with the law. Hackernews experiences cognitive dissonance at the thought that there might be an organization capable of telling Apple what to do. Many thought experiments are performed to try to imagine a world where a corporation might give a shit about human rights. China's secret police show up incognito to explain that anyone who disapproves of Chinese law is probably a Nazi. The rest of the thread is fanfiction about Tim Cook personally exorcising the evil from Beijing."

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#447
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unlikely to face any substantial consequences for (at least publicly) standing up to the government Well, they could take a market hit if customers find out they've been acting contrary to their words.

The percentage of iPhone/Mac users that care enough about VPN in China to switch to Android/Windows wouldn't even be a rounding error.

But apparently there are enough people who care about privacy for Apple to market to them, and they could lose those as customers if it turns out that marketing consisted of empty words.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#448

Couldn't you just do this in China? https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-o...

The problem is that none of the default protocols work in China. Either they are blocked via DPI in combination with techniques like TCP RST injection / null-routing of the destination IPs, or they are known to be insecure, like PPTP (which is why it is removed in iOS 10)

I was able to use gmail, skype, etc with some pretty basic vpn knowledge in China.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. illegal organisations by Chinese laws. 2. illegal organisation by Chinese laws. btw, they spam my mobile all the time, it is pretty rude to call someone's mobile 5-6am on a weekend morning to play prerecorded message like "CCP is bad, they jailed many Falun Gong members". 3. "will" is a very interesting term. Posting here using VPN, let me know when it is actually blocked. 4. I read CNN/BBC/Foxnews quite often, th…

What reason is there to block information about illegal organisations? Is information about ISIS blocked?

To be fair, we censor a lot of content distributed by such organizations.
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