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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

361–370 of 449 posts

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and China is not really part of that tradition.

Valid first principles aren't subject to tradition. In less abstract terms, the case is that abridging speech, especially political speech, is dehumanizing, inherently subjective (therefore unjust), a key tool for tyrrany, and harmful on the whole. It also reduces accountability by limiting the availability of facts and investigations. None of that says anything about democracy, capitalism, or the West.

And yet, there are clearly potential upsides to abridging free speech. As an example from the Western world, in Germany, hate speech laws are used to forestall the spread of harmful ideologies. I think it's common for people in our corner of the world to believe that abridging speech changes nothing — that people will still believe whatever they want to believe behind closed doors — but I strongly suspect that shaping discourse in a society will gradually change the way people think and behave. Curbing hate speech will make people less hateful; promoting communism will make people behave more communist. (For better or for worse.) Must ethics begin and end with the individual? What if enforcing the structure of society for political/religious/philosophical reasons is collectively deemed more important?

Now, I wouldn't necessarily want to live in a society like that, but it seems to me that "valid first principles" is just a fancier appeal to authority. I'm sure the Chinese would roll their eyes at grand proclamations like this.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#362
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google has this "do no evil" value Former Google engineer here. There's a subtle but significant semantic difference between "Don't be evil" (the real motto) and "Do no evil" (a confusion between the Hippocratic oath and the Google motto).

Can you explain the semantic difference between being and doing in this context? What I'm mostly interested in is how you can rationalize doing evil while not considering yourself as being evil. Is it based on the idea that you might do evil unintentionally or that you could be coerced into it? Are there other reasons for the distinction?

Other reasons are because people are really good at rationalization and at cognitive dissonance. Google does plenty of borderline-evil stuff, but as long as they can shrug their shoulders and say "well, it's not like we're evil, just some of the stuff we do is" then apparently it's ok.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#363

I find all this outrage about Apple not taking a stand highly amusing. Practically every single product used in the western world is made in China. Please report back if you can get rid of all those products at a _personal_ level. For a start, looks like I have throw this laptop away. Not going to happen.

The mere use of Chinese products is not the problem being discussed.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#364

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

> the only alternative is to abandon China to those who will do what they are ordered to

Sounds like the "well, if I don't do it, someone else will" justification. Not the first time that has been used to justify an unethical action.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#365
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google ended up losing the entire Chinese market to Baidu, who are going to end up being a global competitor, and the general population didn't even care that Google left. Apple learned from this that you could be a big deal in the West, but a nobody in the East.

Apple will loose in China because of blocking these apps as well this will be another reason to not buy Apple for many.

I don't understand what you're saying. The alternative is not doing business in China at all, how would they sell more phones in China by getting out of the Chinese market, vs staying in China and complying with the government's demands? I'm very curious about what your market research indicates, because it sounds like a contradiction.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saudi Arabia isn't demanding they cripple their products, so selling their products in Saudi Arabia isn't ethically fraught. And Apple isn't spending their time slamming Trump. They're a tech company, not a politician.

These days, ANYONE with a platform, of ANY kind -- cable TV show, massive Twitter following, corporate officer of a Fortune 500, et. al., is a politician.

That's what cable TV wants you to think, sure. But even if that's true, all of those people and organizations you mentioned should be resisting getting sucked into political vortices whenever it is remotely possible to do so. It's a sad commentary on the state of the world today, not something to be embraced.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

Don't do business in china! It's that simple. If you can't do business in a local without getting blood on your hands, then don't do business there.

This would harm Chinese people. If you lived in China, would you consider an iPhone or a Chinese phone to be more secure against intrusion?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#368
post #113
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments can outlaw those too. We need a p2p internet before it's too late. It doesn't have to be the fastest or the best. It just has to work well enough to bootstrap free access to information whenever the government tries to snuff it out. In Cuba they use thumb drives but we can do better.

There's a fundamental limit to what is blockable. Even if all strong cryptography is prohibited and all that can legally be utilised is a backdoored version, a steganographic option can be encorporated in a way that is mathematically undetectable - albeit at rather low bit rates relative to the absolute rate of the stream. The problem for censors is that there is not such thing as optimal compression for a given stre…

That's technically true but largely irrelevant because it ignores the hard problem: if you're a covert agent supported by a major power, sure, you may have the opsec training and resources needed for that to be relevant but in most cases the question is not crypto magic but how it handles discovery, trust, and individual compromises.

You can have perfect steganography but as soon as a government informant says they got contraband data from you people are going to jail or worse. Similarly, all of the plausible deniability in the world won't help if they compromise your system and record you accessing that data.

Among other things, this kills widespread underground media dissemination because as the number of people increases the odds approach certainty that state actors will learn how to access it, and the risk to users increases constantly – how well do you really know the person who hooked you up with an invite code? Is the P2P node you're connecting to anything other than a honeypot? The hottie you hooked up with last night – really into you or just installing malware on your computers and mapping out your social network?

(Lest you think that's a stretch, consider e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29743857 and ask whether the Chinese government is more or less concerned with activists)

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#369
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding 2) Can't you install your own (self-compiled) apps on your own iDevice these days with a free apple developer account? That could work with an open source iOS client that people compile themselves.

Doesn't that require a Mac?

cydia impactor

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#370
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

> What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Leave the apps in the app store and make the government make the next move. They're fucking Apple, they can do a lot to help finally topple that mess. It's something that needs to happen in my lifetime, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a company who otherwise trumpets about social justice to be a part of it.

They can't do a lot if the resultant stock crash causes the board to fire the executives. Executives call the shots but in publicly traded companies their continued employment is decided by the board (who represent investors, who literally only care about stock prices).

Really the big problem here are the constraints imposed on publicly traded companies, which I think do more harm than good in many cases.

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