Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 449 posts

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#321

Post by jMyles »

archagon wrote: post #272
humanrebar wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of speech can be limited even as a universal human right. They are inalienable rights because it's wrong to limit them, not because a group voted to recognize them. The ICCPR's position is interesting to compare and contrast to what is right, not because it's the authority on what is right.

In the end, any and all rights, inalienable or otherwise, are arrived at by consensus, not extracted from the binding fibers of the universe.

The western tradition does in fact hold that, in some form, the binding fibers of the universe are the guarantor of certain rights.

That's the entire basis for the US Declaration of Independence.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#322

Post by klibertp »

jhedwards wrote: post #295
tziki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

This is something I never understood. Google has this "do no evil" value and because staying in China involved compromising this value they left. The result is that the Chinese people are short one search engine as well as _any_ good that Google could have done. This seems ultimately more evil to me. It's good for Google because they can say they upheld their values, and it's good for the Chinese government because n…

> The result is that the Chinese people are short one search engine as well as _any_ good that Google could have done.

One question: do they - Chinese people - even care? It's not exactly "good" - whatever Google could have done in such an environment - if you try to force it on an unwilling crowd.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#323

Post by skc »

dionian wrote: post #251
saimiam wrote: post #235

I see a lot of very cogent arguments defending Apple as only following the law when it comes to VPN laws of China. I'm not old enough to know this first hand but I believe the anti-apartheid movement against South Africa was started by students and spread to the corporate world before world governments stepped up to ban doing business with South Africa. This seems to be a specific example of corporate advocacy leadin…

Their shareholders would flip out, no? Even the Chinese people who don’t support the govt would lament the loss of using the phone.

I doubt this very, very much.

It's a phone, not a body part.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#324

Post by archagon »

jMyles wrote: post #321
archagon wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end, any and all rights, inalienable or otherwise, are arrived at by consensus, not extracted from the binding fibers of the universe.

The western tradition does in fact hold that, in some form, the binding fibers of the universe are the guarantor of certain rights. That's the entire basis for the US Declaration of Independence.

Yes, and China is not really part of that tradition.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#325

Post by icebraining »

cyphar wrote: post #164
humanrebar wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law. I think certain aspects of justice are above legal frameworks. For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, by lobbying the government for various non-business things (gay rights, climate change, etc.), recognize this. I think wholesale restriction and manipulation of political speech is just wrong even…

> For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, While FOXCONN is not slavery , outsourcing work to countries where you can pay incredibly poor people unethically low wages to create expensive products is hardly a good indicator that a company will stand up to laws that don't affect their bottom line.

Does Foxconn pay unethically low wages? The base pay for 40h/week is ~$400/month. In my Western European country, minimum wage is ~$660/month. The difference doesn't seem that much.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#326

Post by darpa_escapee »

dis-sys wrote: post #316
darpa_escapee wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the GFW is a protectionism tool to protect and grew the Chinese Internet sector. How do you reconcile this belief with the following: 1) The GFW blocks sites and content related to dissident groups and individuals in China, such as Xinjiang and Tibetan independence groups. 2) The GFW blocks sites and content related to Falun Gong. 3) Personal VPN usage will be blocked. 4) Many foreign news sites are blocked.

1. illegal organisations by Chinese laws. 2. illegal organisation by Chinese laws. btw, they spam my mobile all the time, it is pretty rude to call someone's mobile 5-6am on a weekend morning to play prerecorded message like "CCP is bad, they jailed many Falun Gong members". 3. "will" is a very interesting term. Posting here using VPN, let me know when it is actually blocked. 4. I read CNN/BBC/Foxnews quite often, th…

> 1. illegal organisations by Chinese laws.

>2. illegal organisation by Chinese laws. btw, they spam my mobile all the time, it is pretty rude to call someone's mobile 5-6am on a weekend morning to play prerecorded message like "CCP is bad, they jailed many Falun Gong members".

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the belief you stated in your OP:

>> I strongly believe the GFW is a protectionism tool to protect and grew the Chinese Internet sector.

> 3. "will" is a very interesting term. Posting here using VPN, let me know when it is actually blocked.

From CNN[0]:

> Beijing said in January it would restrict virtual private networks, or VPNs, and this month reportedly told the three big telecoms companies to block individuals' access to them by early next year.

Companies are already pulling out of the VPN market in China. You might be familiar with this given the thread we're replying to.

> 4. I read CNN/BBC/Foxnews quite often, they are not blocked, no VPN required.

Le Monde, WSJ, NYT, Reuters, The Economist and TIME are blocked[1]. The NYT and BBC have gone through periods of being blocked and unblocked over the past decade.

--

[0] http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/25/technology/china-vpn-censors...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_blocked_in_mainland_C...

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#327

Post by xbmcuser »

gareim wrote: post #215
tziki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Google ended up losing the entire Chinese market to Baidu, who are going to end up being a global competitor, and the general population didn't even care that Google left. Apple learned from this that you could be a big deal in the West, but a nobody in the East.

Apple will loose in China because of blocking these apps as well this will be another reason to not buy Apple for many.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#328

Post by trophycase »

coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

I'm so tired of the "if we don't do it someone else will" mentality. It's just flat out untrue. Not to mention you're basically supporting this type of government by doing business there.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#329

Post by novaleaf »

trophycase wrote: post #328
coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

I'm so tired of the "if we don't do it someone else will" mentality. It's just flat out untrue. Not to mention you're basically supporting this type of government by doing business there.

for large markets, it is true. the roles of google and amazon are being filled locally, in all their respective verticals.

for some niche market, maybe not.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#330

Post by stingrae »

trophycase wrote: post #328
coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

I'm so tired of the "if we don't do it someone else will" mentality. It's just flat out untrue. Not to mention you're basically supporting this type of government by doing business there.

I don't think apple leaving the market would have any impact on the Chinese government's decision process behind policies. There are plenty of Chinese brands that would love the decreased competition. The only effect it would have would be on Apple's sales numbers.
Post reply on HN