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Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

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Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#101

Post by Merad »

peferron wrote: post #76

I'm astonished to see many comments here on HN (albeit heavily downvoted) saying that if you're a "good parent" then it's easy—just don't forget your child in the car! It's like saying that if you're a "good engineer" then it's easy not to drop your production database instead of the development one—just don't ssh to the wrong host! I thought we were done with this way of thinking. Apparently not. Or maybe people thi…

I'm not surprised at all. Even though every rational person knows they're capable of making mistakes, acknowledging that you can easily make a major, major mistake - the kind that kills your child or your company - is a scary thing. I think some people just prefer to lie to themselves rather than than having to deal with it.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#102

Post by wongarsu »

nervousvarun wrote: post #92
rocqua wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As horrible as this form of death is, it seems statistically unlikely. I'd wager that there are orders of magnitude between child deaths in cars due to heat and child deaths in cars due to crashes. As such, I don't think an app for this makes sense. I don't think this ranks when looking at the numbers. That said, this must be amongst the worst ways of losing a child, and that is saying something.

I think you're thinking of this from a purely "statistical scope of the problem" perspective and underestimating the value of "emotional commitment of a parent for their children". If there was an app (would require hardware...some sortof linkup with the child seat) I'd imagine if it was marketed right and there were studies supporting it's effectiveness you could charge an awful lot for it and virtually every parent…

I don't know the American market, but from a Western European perspective that sounds hard to market right. Everyone thinks of mistakes as something other people make (as opposed to accidents, the selling point of good car seats). Nobody is going to think "hopefully I don't forget my child in the car", or at least won't buy anything that gives away that thought.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#103

Post by Schwolop »

Inconel wrote: post #70
nervousvarun wrote: post #41

As others have said this is a problem that in 2017 should already be solved by technology. But in the event you don't have access to a technological solution try this: If you have an infant in your car get in the habit of taking your shoes off and putting them next to the baby when you drive. When you reach your destination you might forget the infant...but you won't forget your shoes. Edit: My dad (who was an absent…

That's definitely an interesting method. I'm always surprised that I don't see more people relying on checklists in day to day tasks. I use checklists religiously at work and have incorporated them into my daily life as well. I have a number of friends who are constantly leaving things behind(cellphones, wallets, house/car keys), I don't think I'm any less of a naturally forgetful person than them, but because I use…

My atheist grandfather taught me the sign of the cross for this reason - "Spectacles, testicles, wallet, and keys."

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#104

Post by neurotech1 »

Inconel wrote: post #70
nervousvarun wrote: post #41

As others have said this is a problem that in 2017 should already be solved by technology. But in the event you don't have access to a technological solution try this: If you have an infant in your car get in the habit of taking your shoes off and putting them next to the baby when you drive. When you reach your destination you might forget the infant...but you won't forget your shoes. Edit: My dad (who was an absent…

That's definitely an interesting method. I'm always surprised that I don't see more people relying on checklists in day to day tasks. I use checklists religiously at work and have incorporated them into my daily life as well. I have a number of friends who are constantly leaving things behind(cellphones, wallets, house/car keys), I don't think I'm any less of a naturally forgetful person than them, but because I use…

When the Navy introduced the NATOPS[0] program, including pilot checklists, aircraft mishaps decreased significantly.

The introductory statement:

NATOPS is a positive approach toward improving combat readiness and achieving a substantial reduction in the aircraft accident rate. Standardization, based on professional knowledge and experience, provides the basis for development of an efficient and sound operational procedure. The standardization program is not planned to stifle individual initiative, but rather to aid the commanding officer in increasing the unit’s combat potential without reducing command prestige or responsibility.

There is significant research that when hospitals required surgeons to use checklists, surgical errors decreased significantly.[1]

Some friends who are NATOPS qualified pilots actually do have NATOPS-style checklists for parenting their kids, for both routine and non-routine/emergency tasks.

e.g Check that the kid is not in the car as they exit.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATOPS

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/0...

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#105

Post by olliej »

icebraining wrote: post #80
0xbear wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manslaughter is by definition involuntary, look it up in the dictionary. Doesn't mean you won't go to jail for it, unless the jury lets you go.

18 U.S.C. § 1112: Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. It is of two kinds: (1) Voluntary (2) Involuntary

My understanding is that (1) is you deliberately did something that killed someone but your intent was not to harm them, say you’re working on a car you mean to scare them by faking dropping the engine on them, but actually do drop the engine, vs (2) you’re working with your friend on a car and drop the engine without knowing that they’re under it.

For (2) i believe that other things feed in to it - did you take sufficient caution, did you have reason to know there was someone there, were you following best practice, etc.

If you did literally nothing wrong (eg a completely freak accident) I don’t believe manslaughter would apply

IANAL though so don’t go dropping engines on people and blame me :)

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#106

Post by mikeash »

rayiner wrote: post #31

This is a great way to analyze the purposes of the criminal justice system. Typically, there are three: punishment, deterrence, and rehabilitation. Prosecuting someone who forgot their kid in the car can't have deterrent effect--to the extent the event was avoidable, the possibility of prosecution couldn't possibly match the deterrent effect created by the risk of harm to the child. Likewise, there is no rehabilitati…

I disagree about deterrence. There are a lot of shitty parents out there who fear prison more than they fear losing their child. There are even parents who want to kill their children. If it becomes common knowledge that you can get away with murdering your kid as long as you use this technique... I don't really want to think about that.

People are also really bad about evaluating potential consequences. A person might not be able to imagine themselves killing their own child, so they might ignore the possibility since they think it can't happen to them. They might be able to imagine getting arrested and put in prison, though, and thus making it a crime could make them think twice.

This seems to me like an obvious case of criminal negligence, which merits punishment for all the same reasons that any such negligence would.

I would also say that it should be criminal merely to leave a child in a car like this, even if the child survives. That would go a long way to deterring people who think they're somehow immune. If the child does die, you should still prosecute the act of leaving them, even if you aren't necessarily prosecuting the death. It would be crazy if the punishment were lower if the crime resulted in death.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#107

Post by increment_i »

rayiner wrote: post #31

This is a great way to analyze the purposes of the criminal justice system. Typically, there are three: punishment, deterrence, and rehabilitation. Prosecuting someone who forgot their kid in the car can't have deterrent effect--to the extent the event was avoidable, the possibility of prosecution couldn't possibly match the deterrent effect created by the risk of harm to the child. Likewise, there is no rehabilitati…

I'd imagine the purpose here would fall under general deterrence. By bringing down a harsh sentence here, you'd hope that future parents would take extra care to prevent such things from happening in the future. There is doubt just how effective general deterrence is in reducing criminal behaviour (see Death Penalty), but I'll admit it does call into question the utility of destroying a man's life that in all likelihood has already been irreparably altered. One thing is for certain, this guy was criminally negligent to highest degree (causing death), and it's unlikely a functioning criminal justice system is going to let someone walk away from that.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#108

Post by StavrosK »

grecy wrote: post #87
koolba wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you replace the victim with a dog instead of his own child, I'd say, " Yes he'd probably do it again. ". That leads to an odd situation where the action that leads to a child's death would warrant a lesser sentence than the same act leading to a dog's death.

Leaving a dog in a car is now the same offense as leaving a child in a car in Australia.

The latter seems more cruel. I mean, how is the child supposed to get back?

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#109

Post by Sleeep »

rayiner wrote: post #31

This is a great way to analyze the purposes of the criminal justice system. Typically, there are three: punishment, deterrence, and rehabilitation. Prosecuting someone who forgot their kid in the car can't have deterrent effect--to the extent the event was avoidable, the possibility of prosecution couldn't possibly match the deterrent effect created by the risk of harm to the child. Likewise, there is no rehabilitati…

How do you tell the difference between someone who forgot their child in a car from someone who "forgot" their child in the car? Should we really be sending the message "you can always get away with killing your kid as long as you use this method. It's a get out of jail free card."

From my experience growing up parental child abuse is fairly common but very underreported so the case of malice can't exactly be discounted.

It's a difficult issue... Even if malice isn't intended there is certainly negligence.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#110

Post by barrkel »

rayiner wrote: post #31

This is a great way to analyze the purposes of the criminal justice system. Typically, there are three: punishment, deterrence, and rehabilitation. Prosecuting someone who forgot their kid in the car can't have deterrent effect--to the extent the event was avoidable, the possibility of prosecution couldn't possibly match the deterrent effect created by the risk of harm to the child. Likewise, there is no rehabilitati…

I think you're confusing punishment with deterrence. Punishment has a vengeful nature, and comes from a more primitive time when victims got their retribution by seeing offenders suffer. Of course it's related to deterrence, but the way you talk about it deterrence is the purpose of punishment, which I don't think is correct. Punishment (and specifically, fulfilling or abating the desire for revenge of the wronged) is an end in itself.
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