Live data from Hacker News

Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

371–380 of 449 posts

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#371

If you build in the ability to censor, you can't disclaim responsibility when a state makes you do it. We'll see the same sort of thing in Russia, the UK, and so on. Apple can still act, if they wish, by not locking down their users. I know that'd be a big step for them.

To be clear, "ability to censor" is basically just having an app store. Companies can decide what they'll include in their store, which means governments can also regulate what they're allowed to sell (or block the app store altogether in that country). That doesn't mean app stores are inherently evil; they still do a lot of good by making sure people can easily find and pay for high-quality apps. As you say, a reaso…

Yes, a curated app store is a great option to have.

It's been said that the app-store-only model is not basically different because you can still buy an unrestricted competing device. I kind of agree, but that's sort of like saying people in China can still decide to move to another country. The cheaper such options are, the more weight to give such an argument. Most people aren't going to carry two phones around.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#372
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't do business in china! It's that simple. If you can't do business in a local without getting blood on your hands, then don't do business there.

This would harm Chinese people. If you lived in China, would you consider an iPhone or a Chinese phone to be more secure against intrusion?

That's a very naive point of view.

Apple has shown the willingness to compromise to access the Chinese market, so there's absolutely no reason to believe that they wouldn't or haven't bow to their other demands, including the weakening of their device security.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#373
post #132

This from the company that removed the headphone jack from their phones while crowing about the "courage" involved in making the decision. I'm not going to pretend to believe that Tim Cook's letter (cited elsewhere) was much more than a PR move in a country they were unlikely to face any substantial consequences for (at least publicly) standing up to the government, or that I really believe that corporations have a r…

> unlikely to face any substantial consequences for (at least publicly) standing up to the government Well, they could take a market hit if customers find out they've been acting contrary to their words.

The percentage of iPhone/Mac users that care enough about VPN in China to switch to Android/Windows wouldn't even be a rounding error.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#374
post #111

Alternative title: Apple complies with law in countries where it operates.

Saying that that it complies with the local laws is a weak argument. This is about moral and ethics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_legislation_in_pre...

The alternative is to stop doing business in China, is that what you want Apple to do?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#375
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

> What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Leave the apps in the app store and make the government make the next move. They're fucking Apple, they can do a lot to help finally topple that mess. It's something that needs to happen in my lifetime, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a company who otherwise trumpets about social justice to be a part of it.

I would imagine Google thought the same. If this was five or more years ago and Xiaomi did not exist, there may be more pressure from the people. However there is a good alternative to the iPhone and the government would probably just say take it or leave it. It would give the government the perfect excuse to ban iPhone and have their citizens use a home grown phone that would be more compliant to the government's wishes.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#376

I see a lot of very cogent arguments defending Apple as only following the law when it comes to VPN laws of China. I'm not old enough to know this first hand but I believe the anti-apartheid movement against South Africa was started by students and spread to the corporate world before world governments stepped up to ban doing business with South Africa. This seems to be a specific example of corporate advocacy leadin…

>I think Apple would be on solid ground if they refused to do business in China

It's not about Apple being on solid ground with anyone. It's about wether Tim Cook can keep his job if shareholders flip their shit.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#377
post #256
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google ended up losing the entire Chinese market to Baidu, who are going to end up being a global competitor, and the general population didn't even care that Google left. Apple learned from this that you could be a big deal in the West, but a nobody in the East.

To be fair, they'd more or less already lost the entire Chinese market to Baidu before they left anyway (they had ~15% marketshare or something).

Anecdote...my Chinese friends have said Google was poor for Chinese language searches. Might explain the 15% market share.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#378
post #215
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Google ended up losing the entire Chinese market to Baidu, who are going to end up being a global competitor, and the general population didn't even care that Google left. Apple learned from this that you could be a big deal in the West, but a nobody in the East.

China was never going to be Google's to win in the first place based on their refusal to censor searches. In 2010 Google had 36% of the search market in China[1], so I imagine that "the general population" did care.

Also I'm pretty that Google isn't a nobody in "The East", The East is much more than just mainland China.

[1] https://www.slideshare.net/anksiitk/googles-negotiations-wit...

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the choice is still yours. Not really, look up fiduciary duty. When you trade publicly, you have a special form of contract to the shareholding trusts, and in turn to the shareholder. If you breach this, you are liable for damages, and likely to be replaced by somebody who isn't going to make the same mistake. This is a vital part of publicly traded companies.

Fiduciary duty, in the sense you are using it, is a myth (most likely created to justify shameful but profitable actions from corporations). A few sources: https://medium.com/bull-market/there-is-no-effective-fiducia... https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/10/6/1578437/-The-Myth... https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-co... There is such a thing as fiduciary duty, but it's not related to the com…

California Corporations Code section 309(a): A director shall perform the duties of a director, including duties as a member of any committee of the board upon which the director may serve, in good faith, in a manner such director believes to be in the best interests of the corporation and its shareholders and with such care, including reasonable inquiry, as an ordinarily prudent person in a like position would use under similar circumstances.

Directors and officers of Apple Inc., incorporated in California, are bound to serve in a manner such that they believe to be in the best interests of the corporation and its shareholders.

If the directors and officers of Apple Inc. could determine that their shareholders have an interest in abstaining from the Chinese market for ideological reasons, they could (possibly) make a decision which would not serve the financial interest of the shareholders, but I find it unlikely that their shareholders would consent to that.

It's obvious to me that remaining in the Chinese market despite the CCP's suppression of liberties is in the interest of the shareholders. It is a huge market, and the other markets simply don't care enough about this issue to stop buying Apple devices and services on account of this concession to the CCP.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#380
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is culture, justified censorship (of extremism for example) and then there is hiding what government did during Tiananmen Square incidents and hiding the transgressions of the CPC and twisting or destroying pre-communist Chinese history, culture and religion. No one is telling Muslim countries to show women hair or telling Singapore or China to unban porn or Europeans to stop enjoying football and enjoy basebal…

>Meanwhile Chinese government wants to use censorship and related powers to cover CPC and governmental abuses and misuses of power, attack its neighbouring countries with propaganda and so on. And people consider this largely okay. But they are a sovereign nation, it's their country and their laws and their army. I mean if other countries did it to the US because their values differ from our values, like say, getting…

I'm not American and I hate Trump actually. EU and USA should start calling China out on their abuses more together.

China has also swore to only use their nuclear arsenal for retaliation (for what it's worth). And China and Pakistan antagonize India (and vice versa) more than any kind of political message ever could and they are all nuclear powers with shared borders.

I don't believe in absolute sovereignty where a government can do anything it wants to its own citizens and be free from even criticism or reduced business as the result. Other countries are also sovereign and should be free to not support China in what they do.

The argument about sovereignty is also largely invalid by precedence when it comes to China and USA and EU too, EU doesn't export drugs for death penalties, USA has a history with South America, Middle East and China/Taiwan disputes, EU and USA both called China out on organ harvesting from executed prisoners, etc.

This isn't about the government but about a single company vs. government in this case. I have no idea what Apple could do. Some people say - allow apps sideloading, another could be preemptive protective censorship (if I were in China I'd rather have Apple tell me I f.d something up with my message before anything leaves my phone than have the message be sent, caught by the Great Firewall and land me in a labor camp). I don't know, Apple has smart people, they should be the ones figuring it all out and put their money where they mouth is with respect to freedom, free flow of ideas and so on. Apple is one of few (only?) un-Chinese phone brands popular in China, all of the others are running customized android or something, are Chinese brands, subservient to the government, more easily influenced because they are based in China, staffed by Chinese, directly under Chinese law and within the CPC's reach, etc.

Apple has very privileged position due to their placement in the USA and recognition. They can try to stretch it, not just roll over and remove VPN as soon as China asks, what they did is literally the easiest and simplest solution, far below them. Due to their location they aren't easily attacked by the Chinese authorities at their own HQ, their top staff is American and thus values freedom of speech and free flow of ideas (unlike Chinese company staff back in China that might agree with government due to education/propaganda and never hearing anything wrong about it), their brand is the only one with such penetration, Chinese already have their own phone vendors that enforce censorship much stronger, they are a recognized brand and when they are gone it'll be very visible and might raise red flags in the upper middle class of Chinese who could afford their products, etc.

Also: As I have already spent a lot of time on this and don't plan to reply anymore and we might be reaching top comment depth I'd like to thank you for the good in depth discussion to get the brain going. I'll consider your arguments and adjust my future views and actions accordingly.

Post reply on HN