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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#131

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #88
sametmax wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If I'm not mugging the grandma, somebody else will" is the most disingenuous excuse of all.

You're confusing morality and legality, and it seems you're in good company around here. But it's not the role of corporate to white knighting a country cultural revolution. Still, interestig to see a nice quip at a completely wrong scale/context captivate such a large audience.

> But it's not the role of corporate to white knighting a country cultural revolution.

You are aware that that is just your arbitrary declaration of what you think their role should be, right? I hereby declare that their role is to do just that. What now?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#132

Post by Vinnl »

mauvehaus wrote: post #102

This from the company that removed the headphone jack from their phones while crowing about the "courage" involved in making the decision. I'm not going to pretend to believe that Tim Cook's letter (cited elsewhere) was much more than a PR move in a country they were unlikely to face any substantial consequences for (at least publicly) standing up to the government, or that I really believe that corporations have a r…

> unlikely to face any substantial consequences for (at least publicly) standing up to the government

Well, they could take a market hit if customers find out they've been acting contrary to their words.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#133

Post by fauigerzigerk »

maxxxxx wrote: post #61
microcolonel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

I don't necessarily blame corporations for this. My point is that we shouldn't look at corporations as agents for freedom. A lot of people seem to be doing this. In the end they will fall in line with whoever is running the country. As long as there is money to be made.

I think as individuals we can never look to either corporations or governments to protect our freedoms in general. We're going to have to look for alignment of interests depending on specific concerns.

In this particular case there is clearly an alignment of interests between users and some corporations - VPN providers. At the same time there is a divergence of interests between the same users and another corporation - Apple.

Similarly, Chinese citizens surely expect their government to protect them from some actions of corporations. For instance, the Chinese government recently banned a lot of health related advertising, because apparently there was too much snake oil salesmanship going on.

The case that triggered this intervention was a complaint by the relatives of a diceased cancer sufferer who had received ineffective treatment following an advert on Baidu. However, the clinic that had advertised that treatment was a government run hospital.

I think this affair shows how complex the alignment of interests can be, even in dictatorships.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#134

Post by humanrebar »

joseph4521 wrote: post #107

Seems that Apple is just following, with much delay, the law of People's Republic of China. I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law.

> I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law.

I think certain aspects of justice are above legal frameworks. For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, by lobbying the government for various non-business things (gay rights, climate change, etc.), recognize this.

I think wholesale restriction and manipulation of political speech is just wrong even if it is legally mandatory. And, while understandable, I'm not sure (still chewing it over) it's a valid excuse to say that we were just complying with the law.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#135

Post by falcolas »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #119
patrickaljord wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't they forced to follow Chinese laws when doing business there? Not saying what they did is moral but it seems the moral question here is whether they be doing business in China, not whether they should be following the laws while doing business their because they don't really have a choice once they decide to do business there. Google for example doesn't do business there so they don't have to respect censorshi…

There is no such thing as "once they decide". Once you notice that what you are doing is immoral, you have to revise previous decisions. Also, it's not that cut and dry: If your product actually contributes to the wealth of the country, they cannot just ban you without hurting themselves. Just because they legally can, does not mean you don't have any leverage.

Could Apple really ever decide to not do any business in China - could they extract their phone/computer business without affecting their manufacturing business?

Without access to Shenzhen and Foxconn, it seems like it would be a literal corporate suicide.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#136

Post by ungzd »

microcolonel wrote: post #27
maxxxxx wrote: post #20

That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

Governments don't force Apple to allow installing apps only from App Store, it's their own decision.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#137

Post by lmm »

Kenji wrote: post #94
eternalban wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK is the surveillance capital of this planet [1]. PM May expressed readiness to "tear up Human Rights"[2]. UK is the enabler of Chinese CP leadership, not a follower. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/19/extreme-survei... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/06/theresa-may...

That is incredibly alarming. I follow UK news with great worries about internet freedom, freedom of speech and human rights in general. I don't understand how the population allows this??

I wrote to my MP, switched ISPs to a (more expensive) one whose stance aligns with mine, and took up the other citizenship I have access to. I am deeply concerned about the views of some of my country's leaders. But ultimately, moving countries would be a big cost, and I don't think anywhere else is significantly better? The status quo here is: leaders talk an anti-free-speech game, propose outrageous unimplementable measures, what actually gets done is at most a trivial inconvenience. Where could I move that would have a firmer commitment to free speech, privacy and the like? US? Canada? I don't feel like I'd be a lot better off in any of those. Maybe Germany but I feel like they're drifting into the restriction-of-speech direction after their migrant issues.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#138

Post by coldcode »

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China, but in reality the only alternative is to abandon China to those who will do what they are ordered to. The market is too large to leave. If you don't agree to their rules you don't play in their sandbox.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#139

Post by gordaco »

microcolonel wrote: post #70
sametmax wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legality and morality are different things. Your shareholders may have the right to ask you to fire loads of people, or be a patent troll, but the choice is still yours. But let's be fair, how many individuals, given the choice, would choose making a better world over money ? Probably not event most people in this thread. We are weak creatures.

> but the choice is still yours. Not really, look up fiduciary duty. When you trade publicly, you have a special form of contract to the shareholding trusts, and in turn to the shareholder. If you breach this, you are liable for damages, and likely to be replaced by somebody who isn't going to make the same mistake. This is a vital part of publicly traded companies.

Fiduciary duty, in the sense you are using it, is a myth (most likely created to justify shameful but profitable actions from corporations). A few sources:

https://medium.com/bull-market/there-is-no-effective-fiducia...

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/10/6/1578437/-The-Myth...

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-co...

There is such a thing as fiduciary duty, but it's not related to the common usage of public companies needing to maximize profit for shareholders.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#140

Post by cyphar »

humanrebar wrote: post #73
pipio21 wrote: post #65

Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs illegal. What do you expect? People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other countries as usual. And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security... It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China, in that order.

I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context. Freedom of speech is foundational. And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both China and the U.S.

Apple has never been pro-free-speech. They have historically censored people in their marketplace from distributing software that disagrees with their political views. For example, they would not allow software that provides factual information about abortions and where to get them in their marketplace -- while at the same time they would allow software from "crisis pregnancy centers"[1] that frequently lie to women and make incorrect claims about dangerous risks of abortions.

It boggles my mind that anyone could think Apple is somehow a vanguard of free speech. Their iThings are jails, they restrict what software you can run on them and they are the final arbiter on what software is allowed. What aspect of that is in keeping with free speech?

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_pregnancy_center

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