Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

301–310 of 449 posts

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#301

Post by AnthonyMouse »

dilap wrote: post #284
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're proposing a false dichotomy. If the choice is to do evil or leave then they should leave, but is it ? How sure are you that a company with thousands of employees and billions of dollars could not find a third way if sufficient pressure was applied on them to do so, instead of us excusing their defection as reasonable ?

Nah, I don't think it is a false dichotomy in this case. It seems unlikely to me in the extreme that China is going to change its policies in response to pressure from some foreign company, even one as large as Apple. More generally, I don't think describing countries & cultures that don't share your particular values as evil is reasonable or useful.

> Nah, I don't think it is a false dichotomy in this case. It seems unlikely to me in the extreme that China is going to change its policies in response to pressure from some foreign company, even one as large as Apple.

That is still a false dichotomy. They don't necessarily have to change the policy in order to render it ineffective.

Apple is full of smart people. They could think of something if they had to.

Others in the comments have already suggested that they could allow side-loading of apps, which would remove their ability to prevent people from installing VPN apps. So the choice isn't actually "do evil or leave", it's at best "do evil or open the walled garden", which makes the choice they made far less sympathetic.

> More generally, I don't think describing countries & cultures that don't share your particular values as evil is reasonable or useful.

Prohibiting VPNs is part of a wider crackdown on free speech and privacy. If "evil" means doing wrong, that is doing wrong. "The banality of evil" and all of that.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#302

Post by ameen »

intopieces wrote: post #205
deathanatos wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China, but in reality the only alternative is to abandon China to those who will do what they are ordered to. That line of "reasoning" makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy, then. (It additionally feels ethically unsound to me; the "if I don't do it, someone else will, therefore it's okay" — no, it's still not okay. And that's what peop…

Is there no chance whatsoever that large American companies could influence the Chinese government by establishing a market presence and then threatening to leave / alter it? This is what they do in the the US. I know that China is usually happy to just start their own Google/Facebook/Amazon/Netflix, so perhaps I'm being naive. As much as I cringe at American companies kowtowing to oppressive governments, it seems li…

We've seen Chinese aspirational companies try and fail, eg: LeEco (Faraday Future, etc).

But Apple made it a company focus to court Chinese market. So they can't back down now. For some reason I've never really liked the Chinese government. They always come across as a benevolent dictator, they'll let you do business as long as you toe the line. Any inkling of freespeech or such ideas and you're out.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#303

Post by CountSessine »

jhedwards wrote: post #295
tziki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

This is something I never understood. Google has this "do no evil" value and because staying in China involved compromising this value they left. The result is that the Chinese people are short one search engine as well as _any_ good that Google could have done. This seems ultimately more evil to me. It's good for Google because they can say they upheld their values, and it's good for the Chinese government because n…

It's good for Google because they can say they upheld their values, and it's good for the Chinese government because now they have one less external factor to manage in their control of information. Perhaps there is more to this picture than I am seeing but that has always been my view

I don't see how they could have stayed in China and not been involved in things that are truly evil. When the government phones you up and tells you to hide search results related to babies dying from diluted baby formula (yes, this happened), could you in good conscience tell one of your engineers to add that filter? How could a company like Google possibly retain good people when they have to ask them to do the bidding of such an evil government?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#304

Post by Infinitesimus »

jhedwards wrote: post #295
tziki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

This is something I never understood. Google has this "do no evil" value and because staying in China involved compromising this value they left. The result is that the Chinese people are short one search engine as well as _any_ good that Google could have done. This seems ultimately more evil to me. It's good for Google because they can say they upheld their values, and it's good for the Chinese government because n…

It's always about what one considers valuable. The Chinese government will block Google if Google didn't give them access and censorship.

Google could spend eternity fighting this until the government changes (ha), or pull our and upload their value of organizing the world's information without* censorship.

In your eyes, they are more evil for not bringing their products to China, in their eyes, they are more noble for making their anti-censorship* stance loud and clear.

Apple in this case can be viewed as doing good (assuming having an iPhone and access to Apple's stuff is good for people) or as putting money over censorship values. It's all about which angle to look from.

The world isn't hurting for search engines, mail providers or luxury smartphones. Maybe Google decided that fighting the Chinese government is not the right battle and allowing direct censorship is not a value they are willing to compromise on even if it means losing access to several millions of users

*Yeah, filter bubbles exist and Google controlling search results and ads can be viewed as evil but that's a different conversation.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#305

Post by ethbro »

honksillet wrote: post #232
enraged_camel wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

Don't do business in china! It's that simple. If you can't do business in a local without getting blood on your hands, then don't do business there.

This. A market being large isn't an excuse for bloody hands.

Furthermore, don't let Chinese companies trade on US exchanges if they participate in human rights abuses.

Everyone knows what the Chinese government is doing strategically with leveraging access to their markets in exchange for control and forced tech transfer. Other countries are well within their moral rights to insist upon a quid pro quo... or else do the same to Chinese companies (who are just starting to reach scales where international expansion is as important to them as domestic).

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#306

Post by ethbro »

1_2__4 wrote: post #285
gareim wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google ended up losing the entire Chinese market to Baidu, who are going to end up being a global competitor, and the general population didn't even care that Google left. Apple learned from this that you could be a big deal in the West, but a nobody in the East.

Google lost nothing. China never had any intention of allowing Google to become dominant in China. That was apparent from day one and comports perfectly with their explicitly stated and demonstrated agenda.

Agreed. When the explicit goal of arbitrarily changed rules are "We'll screw you in favor of a local competitor", why would you choose to play?

Either you are successful, and then the rules are changed to disadvantage you further. Or you're unsuccessful because of the rules. Lose / lose.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#307

Post by [deleted] »

smichel17 wrote: post #213
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google was aspirational in China when it left: they weren't making much money there...they hoped to in the future. Apple is not aspirational in China today: they are already making a lot of money there. Leaving China would cause an immediate shock to its stock price as well as a huge cut in actual profits.

...the profit motive makes it okay! /s

[deleted]

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#308

Post by mturmon »

jhedwards wrote: post #295
tziki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

This is something I never understood. Google has this "do no evil" value and because staying in China involved compromising this value they left. The result is that the Chinese people are short one search engine as well as _any_ good that Google could have done. This seems ultimately more evil to me. It's good for Google because they can say they upheld their values, and it's good for the Chinese government because n…

You have articulated the conundrum of all "social justice" boycotts. I first encountered these arguments in the 1980s when universities and big corps were deciding how to engage with the apartheid regime in South Africa. The specifics are different, but the issues are the same. (I'm NOT equating the two cases. )

Here's some factors that could be a guide: What do the citizens themselves want? Is the boycott merely symbolic, or is it linked to other boycotts and pressure across a wide front, so that it is liable to have the desired outcome? Are the boycotters committed to long term pressure, publicity, and engagement with stakeholders in the other country?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#309

Post by mattnewton »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #298
veridies wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saudi Arabia isn't demanding they cripple their products, so selling their products in Saudi Arabia isn't ethically fraught. And Apple isn't spending their time slamming Trump. They're a tech company, not a politician.

These days, ANYONE with a platform, of ANY kind -- cable TV show, massive Twitter following, corporate officer of a Fortune 500, et. al., is a politician.

Some people just want a normal buyer-seller relationship without picking sides.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#310

Post by mnm1 »

The entire Apple platform is designed to restrict the user and prevent anything that Apple doesn't want to happen from happening. This is Apple's decision only and it's in line with all their other decisions that restrict a user's freedom on their closed, non free platform. If people wanted a platform that would run whatever software they wanted without restrictions, they shouldn't have bought Apple period. That's just dumb to expect a closed, non free platform that censors by default to suddenly do a 180 turn and become free. But hey, it's not like people haven't been saying this for decades now is it? Oh right, people like RMS have but most consumers are too stupid to listen. This is the outcome.
Post reply on HN