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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#211

Post by k-mcgrady »

humanrebar wrote: post #134
joseph4521 wrote: post #107

Seems that Apple is just following, with much delay, the law of People's Republic of China. I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law.

> I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law. I think certain aspects of justice are above legal frameworks. For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, by lobbying the government for various non-business things (gay rights, climate change, etc.), recognize this. I think wholesale restriction and manipulation of political speech is just wrong even…

Gay rights/climate change aren't great examples. Those are areas Apple can lobby for change and make their own internal changes without breaking the law.

Take something Apple says it stands for - privacy. They will stand up for users to a point but they will not break the law. They will lobby and create technical solutions but they will not deny or disclose a national security letter no matter how BS or immoral the request may be. This is the same thing. By distributing VPN apps they break the law. They can still lobby for change or potentially come up with a technical solution that allows users to bypass the great firewall but does not break Chinese law (although I don't see how that's possible).

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#212

Post by fauigerzigerk »

Tepix wrote: post #190
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I expect them to do is this: 1) Put up as much of a fight as possible, just as they have done in the US. 2) Allow sideloading of apps.

Regarding 2) Can't you install your own (self-compiled) apps on your own iDevice these days with a free apple developer account? That could work with an open source iOS client that people compile themselves.

Doesn't that require a Mac?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#213

Post by smichel17 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #206
tziki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Google was aspirational in China when it left: they weren't making much money there...they hoped to in the future. Apple is not aspirational in China today: they are already making a lot of money there. Leaving China would cause an immediate shock to its stock price as well as a huge cut in actual profits.

...the profit motive makes it okay! /s

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#214

Post by appleflaxen »

hoorayimhelping wrote: post #72
adamnemecek wrote: post #37

Hey Timmy, what was all that talk about customer security? https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ And here I was, almost believing you. You're a coward.

> You're a coward. While you're calling another man a coward for not living your values, I'm wondering what you've done to stand up against China that's so fucking brave.

the point is the hypocrisy of Cook and Apple. It's valid criticism even if the poster hasn't been run over by a tank.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#215

Post by gareim »

tziki wrote: post #204
enraged_camel wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Google ended up losing the entire Chinese market to Baidu, who are going to end up being a global competitor, and the general population didn't even care that Google left. Apple learned from this that you could be a big deal in the West, but a nobody in the East.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#216

Post by gareim »

Tepix wrote: post #193

You don't need their closed app store. Free workaround: • apply for a free Apple developer account, • compile your own copy of https://github.com/mtigas/OnionBrowser or https://github.com/yuyao110120/ShadowVPN-iOS and • install it on your own iDevice

You get 10 days before your app stops working and you have to do it again. It's a real pain in the butt.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#217

Post by [deleted] »

humanrebar wrote: post #73
pipio21 wrote: post #65

Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs illegal. What do you expect? People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other countries as usual. And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security... It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China, in that order.

I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context. Freedom of speech is foundational. And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both China and the U.S.

[deleted]

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#218

Post by glomph »

briandear wrote: post #201
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech only applies to the government. Apple can keep whatever they want out of their store.

Why is this downvoted? It’s a factual statement. Freedoms of speech (in the U.S.) is that Congress shall make no law.. A radio station that refuses to play my song or let me talk isn’t violating my freedom of speech. Facebook censoring “hate speech” is not violating freedom of speech. Hate speech is protected speech under the U.S. constitution. (Before anyone brings up Schenck v. United States, that case ruled that s…

Because no one was talking about the United States or the Constitution. Freedom of speech is a broader concept than just what is set out in US law. In fact the conversation was quite specifically not about the US and not about that formulation of freedom of speech.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#219

Post by FRex »

Clubber wrote: post #199
FRex wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it's open. But clearly capitalism doesn't lead to solutions of all problems ever, as evidenced by this. But then a right winger will visit Shanghai, talk to a bunch of happy Chinese and make a YouTube video where he says that in China everyone is happy and rich while in EU your daily life is a struggle against Calais EuroTunnel stowaways or something. The only thing that allows China to do all these is…

So what do you want Apple to do? Leave the China market and allow a government owned phone company to take the market share? How is that scenario better for anyone in the US or China? I mean being angry that the Chinese government isn't great at human rights is one thing, but to point that anger at Apple is a bit misguided, and what do you suggest that would actually make the problem better?

I don't know. That's why it's even a problem. If there was an easy answer then Apple would just do it (or not) and there would be no discussion or dilemma to be had and we'd all applaud them or shit on them depending on if they did the right thing or not.

It's a very tough problem because on one side isolating is bad and allows the oppressive governments to create 'us with them' rhetoric and replace foreign companies with domestic ones that are absolutely subservient to them, on the other, abandoning your original principles and showing that you can be part of 'the West' (products and services wise) without accepting any of the Western values is also bad.

Many people here suggest allowing side loading apps, maybe that's the answer. It'd allow some people the freedom to use iPhones with VPN but also allow Apple the plausible deniability. And Apple's walled garden approach is also criticized for other unrelated reasons so it'd help with them too.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#220

Post by archagon »

humanrebar wrote: post #73
pipio21 wrote: post #65

Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs illegal. What do you expect? People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other countries as usual. And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security... It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China, in that order.

I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context. Freedom of speech is foundational. And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both China and the U.S.

Not that I necessarily agree with this decision, but:

"The version of Article 19 in the ICCPR later amends this by stating that the exercise of these rights carries 'special duties and responsibilities' and may 'therefore be subject to certain restrictions' when necessary '[f]or respect of the rights or reputation of others' or '[f]or the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals'." (Wikipedia)

Freedom of speech can be limited even as a universal human right.

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