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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#251

Post by dionian »

saimiam wrote: post #235

I see a lot of very cogent arguments defending Apple as only following the law when it comes to VPN laws of China. I'm not old enough to know this first hand but I believe the anti-apartheid movement against South Africa was started by students and spread to the corporate world before world governments stepped up to ban doing business with South Africa. This seems to be a specific example of corporate advocacy leadin…

Their shareholders would flip out, no? Even the Chinese people who don’t support the govt would lament the loss of using the phone.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#252

Post by LoSboccacc »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #242
LoSboccacc wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

now china boots you out and you lose a huge market for nothing. oh, and the competitor now enjoying the higher margins will use that money to boost their brand globally, so now you've got less margin and more competition.

How do you know that?

because corporation cannot act for long above the law. whether you like the laws or not doesn't matter.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#253

Post by humanrebar »

FRex wrote: post #174
blfr wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This problem was clearly created by the Chinese government so it's probably not the best thread for a tirade against a libertarian strawman.

It's not a fucking strawman, it's the answer of die hard capitalists to every single problem with capitalism - create a company and fix it all, "free market will dictate that the better product wins" and all that jazz. If someone can't afford food or rent that means that he didn't work hard enough for it and doesn't provide 'value'. That's die hard capitalism that enables shit like China to happen and this is all ove…

That's a very particular view of history. The USSR was distinctly not capitalist and it's citizens starved to death in massive numbers. China had the Great Leap Forward.

It's a straw man because nobody here thinks poor people deserve to starve to death. In fact my capitalist job allows me to pay taxes and support charities for feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#254

Post by LoSboccacc »

sametmax wrote: post #146
LoSboccacc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing morality and legality, and it seems you're in good company around here. But it's not the role of corporate to white knighting a country cultural revolution. Still, interestig to see a nice quip at a completely wrong scale/context captivate such a large audience.

There is no such thing "the role of a corporate". A company is what you do with it.

corporate acting above the law will quickly find themselves dissolved and ousted from the market. this is not about what people feels it's good or bad, it's about what's legal and what's not in a country.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#255

Post by humanrebar »

archagon wrote: post #220
humanrebar wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context. Freedom of speech is foundational. And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both China and the U.S.

Not that I necessarily agree with this decision, but: "The version of Article 19 in the ICCPR later amends this by stating that the exercise of these rights carries 'special duties and responsibilities' and may 'therefore be subject to certain restrictions' when necessary '[f]or respect of the rights or reputation of others' or '[f]or the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public…

> Freedom of speech can be limited even as a universal human right.

They are inalienable rights because it's wrong to limit them, not because a group voted to recognize them. The ICCPR's position is interesting to compare and contrast to what is right, not because it's the authority on what is right.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#256

Post by imron »

gareim wrote: post #215
tziki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Google ended up losing the entire Chinese market to Baidu, who are going to end up being a global competitor, and the general population didn't even care that Google left. Apple learned from this that you could be a big deal in the West, but a nobody in the East.

To be fair, they'd more or less already lost the entire Chinese market to Baidu before they left anyway (they had ~15% marketshare or something).

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#258

Post by chii »

choko wrote: post #224
joecool1029 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, they really can't. Apple's margins depend on Chinese labor to build their hardware. The two companies are very different.

Market size and profit aren't an acceptable excuse for hypocrisy.

i think you'll find that in the real world, those are almost always used as excuses, and the money makes it acceptable.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#259

Post by k-mcgrady »

the8472 wrote: post #248
k-mcgrady wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can load your own software on to an iOS device provided you have access to the code. AFAIK iOS dev tools that enable you to load apps onto the device no longer require the $99 annual fee so if you download them you can side-load software.

This post claims otherwise: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14880751

My point was you can side-load apps. As for that specific API even the official docs seem a bit confused:

"Except when you use the NEHotspotHelper class, you do not need to obtain entitlements from Apple to use Network Extension classes. However, you still need to enable the Network Extension entitlement via the Developer portal."

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#260

Post by samstave »

coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

>We don't get to decide anything without government approval

ELI5:

* How does the "decide" process and "approval" process work?

* Who is the decider? (What are their qualifications/bkgrd? (Are they ex workers of the tech sector in .CN that have xp in building all the things?

* What are the implications to cost/design/[whatever-i-dont-know-to-ask]?

* ELI5 'submission for approval' and 'time to approval'

* do .cn gov employees work/are-embedded-at any given company?

* is it as totalitarian as it sounds or is it efficient?

* what cut does the government take?

* Who is reputable in the US to ensure a product can get built in china?

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