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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#161

Post by humanrebar »

sametmax wrote: post #154
humanrebar wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, our level includes working towards agreement in the HN community that aiding in censorship is bad.

Fair enough. But I don't think complaining about it is going to help. Pointing it out yes, but the tone need to be more neutral if you want the crowd from this site to take it seriously.

I'm not saying this is the topic to be aggressive in, but neutrality and dispassion aren't always virtues. For example:

"I understand why you think apartheid is best. I just personally wish you would reconsider."

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#162

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

simonh wrote: post #145
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as "once they decide". Once you notice that what you are doing is immoral, you have to revise previous decisions. Also, it's not that cut and dry: If your product actually contributes to the wealth of the country, they cannot just ban you without hurting themselves. Just because they legally can, does not mean you don't have any leverage.

How many of Apple's devices are manufactured in China? The Chinese Government could completely cripple Apple in a second. It really isn't Apple that has the leverage. Censorship is fundamental to Chinese government policy. It's totally non-negotiable. You either do as they say, or you don't operate in China. No negotiation, no compromise. Given the manufacturing situation China has Apple by the short and curlies, and…

So, you think china doesn't care about unemployment?

Also, there is no such thing as "non-negotiable". Everything is negotiable, if you are able to offer something of enough value in exchange.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#163

Post by JustSomeNobody »

leppr wrote: post #84
humanrebar wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context. Freedom of speech is foundational. And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both China and the U.S.

It's been known for years that Apple is actively against freedom of speech when it comes to its marketplace. Why would you expect it to make an exception for China ?

Freedom of speech only applies to the government. Apple can keep whatever they want out of their store.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#164

Post by cyphar »

humanrebar wrote: post #134
joseph4521 wrote: post #107

Seems that Apple is just following, with much delay, the law of People's Republic of China. I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law.

> I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law. I think certain aspects of justice are above legal frameworks. For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, by lobbying the government for various non-business things (gay rights, climate change, etc.), recognize this. I think wholesale restriction and manipulation of political speech is just wrong even…

> For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple,

While FOXCONN is not slavery, outsourcing work to countries where you can pay incredibly poor people unethically low wages to create expensive products is hardly a good indicator that a company will stand up to laws that don't affect their bottom line.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#165

Post by sangnoir »

humanrebar wrote: post #128
nine_k wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly would they help respect it? Their choices are, as far as I can tell, to either remove certain apps from app store, or to face the app store blocked entirely. I wonder what servers their customers best. It's hard and unpleasant to conduct business in a place where laws are at odds with what you believe is right. But when it's lucrative enough, you may choose to shut up and comply.

> I wonder what servers their customers best. It sounds like that point can be accurately rephrased as, "We're censoring you, but we did some soul searching and we think it's for your own good."

> "We're censoring you, but we did some soul searching and we think it's for your own good."

There certainly aren't any souls waiting to be found in the earnings report.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#166

Post by dis-sys »

aluhut wrote: post #115
dis-sys wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

could you please stop representing 1.4B Chinese? if the government is so bad, why there is no systematic resistance given the fact that Chinese people had a long history of fighting the repressive regimes?

Fear of the Government that is even in your pocket?! As someone who grew up in the East Block, reading such naive comments as yours leaves me divided. It's good on one hand that you've never came even close to an oppressive government so not even your imagination allows you to grok. On the other hand facing the development in the world, it's quite concerning.

> As someone who grew up in the East Block

so you grew up in the old communist eastern bloc, and you want to blindly compare what you suffered back then to what is happening in China now?

I didn't grew up in communism, I grew up after the 1978 reform in China. My entire extended family work for the private sector with my closest family members running their own successful private businesses. Did you guys have that in the eastern bloc (not east block)? I got Internet connection back in the early 90s and I have been openly posting comments on Chinese forums criticising some of CCP's policies for the last 20 years. They didn't give a sh!t about it and I never got myself into any trouble. Can you guys do that back in the eastern bloc days? Starting from my middle school, they have been teaching me that the market economy is the only viable solution, they encourage the best students to study in western countries and offered numerous benefits for that, e.g. a long list of tax benefits if you study in the west and go back to China later. Did your eastern bloc "motherland" encourage you to do that?

The eastern bloc failed for an obvious reason: communism. Chinese killed that rubbish back in 1978. Learn something.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#167

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

falcolas wrote: post #135
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as "once they decide". Once you notice that what you are doing is immoral, you have to revise previous decisions. Also, it's not that cut and dry: If your product actually contributes to the wealth of the country, they cannot just ban you without hurting themselves. Just because they legally can, does not mean you don't have any leverage.

Could Apple really ever decide to not do any business in China - could they extract their phone/computer business without affecting their manufacturing business? Without access to Shenzhen and Foxconn, it seems like it would be a literal corporate suicide.

Well, I don't know--but given that Foxconn is apparently planning to open a factory in the US, I would suspect it shouldn't be all that impossible?

Also, do you think that China doesn't care about unemployment and exports? I mean, Foxconn is not a charity, they are effectively an exporter of a part of the value of Apple products, and they employ people building Apple products, if they kick out Apple, that money will most likely go elsewhere and employ people elsewhere.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#168

Post by drefgert »

joseph4521 wrote: post #107

Seems that Apple is just following, with much delay, the law of People's Republic of China. I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law.

Is it reasonable to assume you're a citizen of the PRC?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#169

Post by fauigerzigerk »

gambiting wrote: post #106
Kenji wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is incredibly alarming. I follow UK news with great worries about internet freedom, freedom of speech and human rights in general. I don't understand how the population allows this??

Because no one cares. Or people who do are in minority. I've had discussions both in real life and online with people telling me they don't understand how I can be against surveillance, it's meant to fight pedophiles and terrorists, so of course it's good,right? In general, in 7 years of living in the UK, it is definitely my observation that British people in general trust the government to do the right thing. They w…

It's true that this seems to be the majority sentiment, in spite of things like a ban on completely harmless sex acts in porn (such as female ejaculation or spanking). This is clearly repressive government action against a sexual minority as we are talking about consenting adults here.

What surprises me more though is how people can be so confident that their data is safe with the government. There is a long list of failed IT projects and incompetent handling of computer security by public organisations.

Even if everything the government wants to do with our data was justified, there would still be a very valid concern about this data eventually ending up in the hands of organised criminals.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#170

Post by humanrebar »

sangnoir wrote: post #165
humanrebar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder what servers their customers best. It sounds like that point can be accurately rephrased as, "We're censoring you, but we did some soul searching and we think it's for your own good."

> "We're censoring you, but we did some soul searching and we think it's for your own good." There certainly aren't any souls waiting to be found in the earnings report.

There are actual people that make these decisions. C-level executives or some sort of committee.
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