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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#41

Post by marak830 »

threeseed wrote: post #31
jahnu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent didn't suggest otherwise. Maybe it's better, i.e. the right thing to do, to leave a market in an oppressive land? Personally I think more of Google for doing that.

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The USA is hardly a shining example of a country the rest of the world should be following right now. It is doing plenty of oppressive things that many of us in the rest of world don't agree with e.g. Paris accord, incarceration rates, threats against the press. I don't agree with what China is doing but the "right thing to do" is never so simple.

I don't think anyone from any country can honestly say their products are free, open and willing to push back against governments anymore (anyone with a correction though I would be more than happy to see, so that I can support that company.)

Edit:(quick -i wanted to follow up after hitting post)

We shouldn't ever make arguments such as 'well x is worse' because that just detracts from the issue.

The problem is a company voluntarily giving up a particular service(or disallowing in this case), due to local laws that we (I'm sure as a majority on hn) disagree with. This is the issue, not that any particular goverent or president/prime minister or whatever is wrong or an idiot.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#42

Post by microcolonel »

marak830 wrote: post #38
microcolonel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps…

In many places where companies are incorporated, that is likely an illegal decision to make for your company. Unless you can argue that the loss of sales in that jurisdiction will be less than the loss in sales abroad (from loss of consumer trust), you probably can't do it.

In addition, they likely have ongoing procurement contracts with some companies in China which they would need to continue honouring.

In principle I agree with you, but unless this is a founding policy of your company, your shareholders have every right to object.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#43

Post by throwanem »

threeseed wrote: post #31
jahnu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent didn't suggest otherwise. Maybe it's better, i.e. the right thing to do, to leave a market in an oppressive land? Personally I think more of Google for doing that.

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The USA is hardly a shining example of a country the rest of the world should be following right now. It is doing plenty of oppressive things that many of us in the rest of world don't agree with e.g. Paris accord, incarceration rates, threats against the press. I don't agree with what China is doing but the "right thing to do" is never so simple.

What would you have us do, then? What would you have Apple, or the United States as a whole, to bring China's policies more in line with your preferences? You seem to have some opinions on this subject, after all. Perhaps you'd like to share them.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#45

Post by LoSboccacc »

marak830 wrote: post #38
microcolonel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps…

That's extremely disingenuous. Any profit left on the table will be exploited by the next corporation in line. The loop has to be closed by the people when they get mature enough... and if that's what they want: there are few things more bigot than someone measuring with the west meter other countries' success.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#46

Post by threeseed »

maxxxxx wrote: post #20

That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now.

This is simplistic and short term thinking.

Companies can help to progress the cause of free speech in oppressive lands over the long term. Yes, Apple is not going to facilitate VPN usage but the wealth of content and learning opportunities provided by mobile apps is also worth something.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#47

Post by sametmax »

marak830 wrote: post #38
microcolonel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps…

I wish.

But...

Most people don't have the guts. Why would you expect corporation to have it ? This is the reality of the world, most people don't care about making the moral choice and will choose short term benefits. Getting sick over this is like crying because the sky's color displeases you.

Spend your energy trying to improve things at your level. This is all you can do.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#48

Post by aluhut »

oneplane wrote: post #29
libeclipse wrote: post #24

What a despicable joke of a country. And shame on Apple for aiding them while they made such a massive deal of user rights in the US.

Different countries, different laws... what did you expect?

Balls? Integrity?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#49

Post by Banthum »

threeseed wrote: post #31
jahnu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent didn't suggest otherwise. Maybe it's better, i.e. the right thing to do, to leave a market in an oppressive land? Personally I think more of Google for doing that.

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The USA is hardly a shining example of a country the rest of the world should be following right now. It is doing plenty of oppressive things that many of us in the rest of world don't agree with e.g. Paris accord, incarceration rates, threats against the press. I don't agree with what China is doing but the "right thing to do" is never so simple.

Nobody thinks the USA is perfect. But there is no comparison with China. Having a lot of violent crime and putting many people behind bars is nothing like mass executing prisoners to take their organs for profit. Openly arresting dissident jounalists is nothing like whatever imaginary 'threats' you're talking about. No country of size, diversity and importance has ever been or will ever be a moral utopia. Let's keep some perspective as we try to optimize within this reality.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#50

Post by [deleted] »

threeseed wrote: post #31
jahnu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent didn't suggest otherwise. Maybe it's better, i.e. the right thing to do, to leave a market in an oppressive land? Personally I think more of Google for doing that.

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The USA is hardly a shining example of a country the rest of the world should be following right now. It is doing plenty of oppressive things that many of us in the rest of world don't agree with e.g. Paris accord, incarceration rates, threats against the press. I don't agree with what China is doing but the "right thing to do" is never so simple.

[deleted]
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