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14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

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Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#91

Post by shawnee_ »

yorwba wrote: post #64
shawnee_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the personal decision to use hard or addicting drugs is something of a moral failing. Watch the documentary I mentioned above. Also try this one: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4079250/ Addiction is a mental health issue before it becomes a debilitating physical health issue ... one that (very often) leads to suicide or death. To suggest that unwell people have the strength to fight it on their own with the strength o…

I don't read mythrwy as blaming those who are already addicted and can't fight their drug habit, but rather those who start taking drugs even when they should be able to see the consequences. (Some quotes [emphasis mine]: "the personal decision to use hard or addicting drugs is something of a moral failing.", "it is a vice in which people for the most part, at least initially , have some choice.") Shaming doesn't hel…

> rather those who start taking drugs even when they should be able to see the consequences.

The Just say No campaigning of the 80s and 90s didn't work. It became a parody and undermining of the core issue which is the invisible line people cross when they cross into abuse. The IMDB link I posted for mythrwy explains this very well as it shows another class of addicts on the edge of a very religious community: those whose addictions started with prescriptions from their doctors.

Certainly no one has a beer or fills a prescription from an MD with the intent of becoming an alcoholic or addict, but that is what happens sometimes; the invisible line into abuse territory is, in fact, invisible to most people who find themselves on the other side of it. And on the other side, they find themselves increasingly powerless to control. The more isolation society heaps upon them for being unable to "control" it, the further they stray from the territory where it's possible to reach them for help. The Audioslave guy. Robin Williams. Famous people and non-famous people. Addiction is an equal-opportunity destroyer.

To suggest that anybody has the intent to become a drug addict is absolutely ridiculous. Decriminalization helps a society address the core issue sooner (keeping them in touch with society) and saves lives.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#92

Post by rwnspace »

libertine wrote: post #88
rwnspace wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's peculiar how reports of sensible policy make me feel Portugal is adorned in rubies and roses. Here in the UK the Home Office recently said they have no plans to look at even the classification of cannabis. Despite most local police forces not bothering with anything but factories, a majority of population supporting legalisation/decriminalisation, and global trends. We are comparatively medieval but for a few sm…

Here in Portugal I think there's still quite a path to go to legalize some drugs honestly - some country's are jumping right into it, heads first, but they are forgetting precisely the addiction factor and what health care structures and mindset are required to deal with this. No matter how harmless a drug is, there are always inherent issues bound to it's consumption.

I am not entirely sure that legalisation alone increases unhealthy usage. I think people that fit profiles which make substance addiction a significant risk, are mostly the same profiles that don't respect 'the law because it's law'. At the same time, I know of plenty of people who drink dangerously but don't touch other substances. The comparison is difficult because of all the factors that promote drinking in society.

Mindset/cultural attitudes are the central question. Say if the UK's binge-drinking culture transposes to binge-consumption, and introducing legality is considered an opened door, then the healthcare structures are critical. It's also probably quite hard to educate GPs - who seem to be big on drinking away their stresses at uni but avoiding other drugs - into an open mindset that identifies the right problems.

The pros and cons seem to accommodate a careful optimism and evolution-of-culture outlook. Not necessarily sweeping reforms. The problem for this view is that those with vested interests support sweeping anti-reform, whatever way you want to look at it.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#93

Post by vixen99 »

3131s wrote: post #85
ausvisaissues wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong: it is a big moral failing. Why is it impossible for Westerners not to use drugs, while the Japanese manage not to use it fairly well? Should we set the bar for behaviour so low? Even if drugs were legalized, the cost for treatment would be high (and presumably be bourne by the tax payer).

The moral failure is on your part for desiring to restrict the freedom of others. It's people like you who don't really care that millions have been imprisoned over a personal choice. You are an authoritarian, which is fine, but some of us don't take that kind of thing laying down.

Society is predicated on some restriction of freedom. That's a moral failure? For an alternative view on drug legalization which you will no doubt want to contest - https://www.city-journal.org/html/don%E2%80%99t-legalize-dru...

The author is a ex-prison doctor who's spent his career working with the convicted and the mentally ill.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#94

Post by state_less »

mythrwy wrote: post #56
JamesBarney wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must being living in a very different community than mine. I live in Texas and being a heroin/cocaine/alcohol/nicotine(not as much) addict is a shameful thing. Yet we still have quiet the drug problem. I've only known a few people who fell down the deadly spiral of drug abuse. But each one hid their addiction because of shame until it was so terrible they couldn't. And I believe if it had been less shameful they…

I live close enough and here's my observation. There is a very large subgroup that doesn't regard these things as shameful. This often becomes the main group of people involved with drugs. And it keeps sucking them back in, sometimes when they would otherwise get and this is exactly the problem I'm talking about.

In the US, bible belt culture generally regards drugs as shameful, and yet, this is where heroin and meth abuse is most prevalent. Same with porn use, drug use's cousin. Less shaming leads to the same levels or less than if their were shaming because, counterintuitively enough, shame and blame increases isolation and foul moods which leads to more drug use than otherwise would exist.

Best for anti-drug folks to take some responsibility for creating this "war on drugs", its attendant culture and the lives lost.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#95

Post by rasjani »

vidarh wrote: post #76
bjelkeman-again wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we could get the same attitude in Sweden. What do you think is the main barrier in Sweden?

I'm Norwegian, not Swedish, but there is this lutheran/protestant culture that's very deeply embedded in the Scandinavian/Nordic countries that have one hand contributed to the success of things like criminal reform and welfare, because those areas happened to unite a lot of Christians and a lot of liberals and left wing people around a shared belief of how to treat people with decency and compassion, but which at th…

I can echo the same is very valid in Finland. Certain behaviors that are very stereotypical here are Protestant/Lutheran by nature. It's also a bit amuzing as mostly people don't recognize that and are typically very anti religion or atheist.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#96

Post by 3131s »

ausvisaissues wrote: post #87
3131s wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moral failure is on your part for desiring to restrict the freedom of others. It's people like you who don't really care that millions have been imprisoned over a personal choice. You are an authoritarian, which is fine, but some of us don't take that kind of thing laying down.

> It's people like you who don't really care that millions have been imprisoned over a personal choice. Japan imprisons a very small percentage of people compared to the USA. Furthermore,it is a personal choice only if the other individual's choice does not have negative externalities. Yet, a casual stroll through San Francisco 's mission district would tell you that this is not the case. Who would have thought that…

> Furthermore,it is a personal choice only if the other individual's choice does not have negative externalities.

So we should ban every personal choice with negative externalities? There goes alcohol, twinkies, contact sports, driving, etc. It's a personal choice as much as anything else, so just estimate the cost of any negative externalities and cover that through taxation.

> Yet, a casual stroll through San Francisco 's mission district would tell you that this is not the case.

Of course you don't know any of those people and can't say for sure whether drug abuse is what lead them to the behavior that you disapprove of.

> But when I compare the outcomes of Japan/ Singapore to that of the US, it is simple to see which model is the best.

The model of inhumane prisons and death sentences? Actually the US has a pretty similar model to that already, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#97

Post by lm2s »

lmickh wrote: post #12

Find it misleading that almost all of the recent articles on this subject talk about decriminalization as the cause for the drop in drug related health issues. They shifted a significant chunk of money to health services. If it proves anything, it is only that health services can reduce drug related health issues. Without a control, there is nothing to point to regarding criminalization vs decriminalization. People a…

It's not really misleading if you know the how and why. For the addicts to accept health services help (like clean needles or getting off heroin) they could not be under threat of going to jail.

So you decriminalise to allow addicts to come forth and accept clean needles and other help, while simultaneously investing more money to provide that help.

It's a two prong "attack" and it's pretty simple actually.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#98

Post by ausvisaissues »

3131s wrote: post #96
ausvisaissues wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's people like you who don't really care that millions have been imprisoned over a personal choice. Japan imprisons a very small percentage of people compared to the USA. Furthermore,it is a personal choice only if the other individual's choice does not have negative externalities. Yet, a casual stroll through San Francisco 's mission district would tell you that this is not the case. Who would have thought that…

> Furthermore,it is a personal choice only if the other individual's choice does not have negative externalities. So we should ban every personal choice with negative externalities? There goes alcohol, twinkies, contact sports, driving, etc. It's a personal choice as much as anything else, so just estimate the cost of any negative externalities and cover that through taxation. > Yet, a casual stroll through San Franc…

> whether drug abuse is what lead them to the behavior that you disapprove of.

I am pretty sure the needles on the sidewalk is just there because everyone suffers from diabetes, right?

I think that, fortunately for most IT people like us, we can live in nice neighborhoods, where none of the social ills of drug-ridden neighbortlhoods affect us. So, we can support drug legalization, without being affected by the consequences.

> The model of inhumane prisons and death sentences?

Japan/Singapore imprisons much less people for drug crimes than the US - due to the USA's lenient laws on drugs (grey line vs. red line). The ill effects of drug use in japan is virtually non-existent.

You can moralize all you want, but it is a better system with less actual harm.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#99

Post by alkonaut »

jdmoreira wrote: post #44
lmickh wrote: post #12

Find it misleading that almost all of the recent articles on this subject talk about decriminalization as the cause for the drop in drug related health issues. They shifted a significant chunk of money to health services. If it proves anything, it is only that health services can reduce drug related health issues. Without a control, there is nothing to point to regarding criminalization vs decriminalization. People a…

I'm Portuguese and I grew up watching the heroin epidemic we had in Portugal. It was horrible, like the article mentions 1% of the population was addicted to heroin. Curiously I now live in Sweden, but I lived in Portugal for the first 11 years of the decriminalization. And the solution actually started years before, in the early 90s. It's a bit like you said, it was an huge investment in public health - the first su…

What most keeps me away from hard drugs isn't that the addiction is similar to a horrible disease, but to 99% that it (society's stigma) would cost me my job and my family. I admire the way in which Portugal removed the stigma of existing addicts and how it's considered a disease and not as stigmatized as here (Sweden) but I can't say the "threat of being stigmatized" is 100% negative. You can't have it both ways I guess.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#100

Post by aaronbrethorst »

chrisbennet wrote: post #58
shawnee_ wrote: post #27

Portugal's performance in perspective: Only three people for every million die of a drug overdose in Portugal, which puts one of the eurozone's poorest countries in a different league than rich international powerhouse Germany (17.6 per million) and in a different universe than social democratic utopia Sweden (69.7 per million). There's a fascinating documentary called American Addict on what nearly happened before t…

The true reason for the war on drugs was to be able to attack blacks and anti-war demonstrators, according to Nixon' domestic policy advisor: At the time, I was writing a book about the politics of drug prohibition. I started to ask Ehrlichman a series of earnest, wonky questions that he impatiently waved away. “You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public d…

Thanks for posting this. It explains a lot, including Jeff Sessions’s desire to restart the War on Drugs.
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