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14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

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Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#81

Post by galfarragem »

petre wrote: post #67

Romania is on the last place according to the chart in the article and drug possesion is a criminal offense in this country. It's punishable by two to five years in jail. The rehab is inside the penitenciary, so you first go to jail, then to rehab. Also it's quite interesting how just about every country that's close to the Netherlands, save for France which criminalizes posession, is at the top of the chart. I've be…

> I've been to Lisbon and was approached countless times on the street by shady individuals trying to sell drugs, usually mj/hash but also coke

They are mostly groups of gypsies selling fake drugs and sunglasses that will escalate to coercion if necessary/possible. Police is normally very permissive.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#82

Post by ausvisaissues »

mythrwy wrote: post #32
shawnee_ wrote: post #27

Portugal's performance in perspective: Only three people for every million die of a drug overdose in Portugal, which puts one of the eurozone's poorest countries in a different league than rich international powerhouse Germany (17.6 per million) and in a different universe than social democratic utopia Sweden (69.7 per million). There's a fascinating documentary called American Addict on what nearly happened before t…

While I generally agree with most of what you state I'd like to offer the unpopular opinion that the personal decision to use hard or addicting drugs is something of a moral failing. Not that there aren't extenuating circumstances, not that it's a "terrible crime", but, it is a vice in which people for the most part, at least initially, have some choice. Again, I'm in favor of most everything you suggest, particularl…

You are wrong: it is a big moral failing. Why is it impossible for Westerners not to use drugs, while the Japanese manage not to use it fairly well?

Should we set the bar for behaviour so low?

Even if drugs were legalized, the cost for treatment would be high (and presumably be bourne by the tax payer).

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#83

Post by perilunar »

> As João Goulão, the architect of Portugal's decriminalization model, told Hari, "using drugs is only a symptom of some suffering, and we have to reach the reasons."

Not necessarily. Using (harder) drugs is no more an indication of mental health problems than using alcohol. Many people use drugs recreationally without becoming addicted.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#85

Post by 3131s »

ausvisaissues wrote: post #82
mythrwy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I generally agree with most of what you state I'd like to offer the unpopular opinion that the personal decision to use hard or addicting drugs is something of a moral failing. Not that there aren't extenuating circumstances, not that it's a "terrible crime", but, it is a vice in which people for the most part, at least initially, have some choice. Again, I'm in favor of most everything you suggest, particularl…

You are wrong: it is a big moral failing. Why is it impossible for Westerners not to use drugs, while the Japanese manage not to use it fairly well? Should we set the bar for behaviour so low? Even if drugs were legalized, the cost for treatment would be high (and presumably be bourne by the tax payer).

The moral failure is on your part for desiring to restrict the freedom of others. It's people like you who don't really care that millions have been imprisoned over a personal choice. You are an authoritarian, which is fine, but some of us don't take that kind of thing laying down.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#86

Post by syshum »

lmickh wrote: post #18
aidenn0 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think regardless of the details of legality, it is strong anecdotal evidence that dollars spent on treatment reduce OD deaths more than dollars spent on enforcement. It adds to a strong body of research that already points in that direction

Yes, it appears to affirm that law enforcement is not the best bang for the buck. There has been plenty of work indicating that like you mentioned. That wasn't a "bold risk". That is separate from saying that changing the legality of it impacts the usage though. There is not reason to take the result beyond what it indicates.

>That is separate from saying that changing the legality of it impacts the usage though

You can not before treatment and for keeping it illegal.

These are mutually exclusive, as treatment for drug addiction has to be voluntary on the part of the user, and often time criminal convictions, and stress of legal issues are what drive people to use drugs.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#87

Post by ausvisaissues »

3131s wrote: post #85
ausvisaissues wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong: it is a big moral failing. Why is it impossible for Westerners not to use drugs, while the Japanese manage not to use it fairly well? Should we set the bar for behaviour so low? Even if drugs were legalized, the cost for treatment would be high (and presumably be bourne by the tax payer).

The moral failure is on your part for desiring to restrict the freedom of others. It's people like you who don't really care that millions have been imprisoned over a personal choice. You are an authoritarian, which is fine, but some of us don't take that kind of thing laying down.

> It's people like you who don't really care that millions have been imprisoned over a personal choice.

Japan imprisons a very small percentage of people compared to the USA.

Furthermore,it is a personal choice only if the other individual's choice does not have negative externalities.

Yet, a casual stroll through San Francisco 's mission district would tell you that this is not the case.

Who would have thought that drug use by the mentally unstable would result in a bad outcome...

> You are an authoritarian,

Perhaps. But when I compare the outcomes of Japan/ Singapore to that of the US, it is simple to see which model is the best.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#88

Post by libertine »

rwnspace wrote: post #80
jdmoreira wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Portuguese and I grew up watching the heroin epidemic we had in Portugal. It was horrible, like the article mentions 1% of the population was addicted to heroin. Curiously I now live in Sweden, but I lived in Portugal for the first 11 years of the decriminalization. And the solution actually started years before, in the early 90s. It's a bit like you said, it was an huge investment in public health - the first su…

It's peculiar how reports of sensible policy make me feel Portugal is adorned in rubies and roses. Here in the UK the Home Office recently said they have no plans to look at even the classification of cannabis. Despite most local police forces not bothering with anything but factories, a majority of population supporting legalisation/decriminalisation, and global trends. We are comparatively medieval but for a few sm…

Here in Portugal I think there's still quite a path to go to legalize some drugs honestly - some country's are jumping right into it, heads first, but they are forgetting precisely the addiction factor and what health care structures and mindset are required to deal with this.

No matter how harmless a drug is, there are always inherent issues bound to it's consumption.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#89

Post by pdpi »

vivekd wrote: post #69
pdpi wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it could include HIV/AIDS, once a big killer of heroin users which we can now treat for much better. If it does, that still supports this theory. My father in law is a leading portuguese HIV expert, and he credits decreminalisation as a key factor in actually getting those patients into clinics and on treatment.

I didn't mean we can treat for AIDS better with legalization, I mean we can treat for AIDS better because of improved and more accessible AIDS treatments that have emerged in the last decade and a half

I know you didn't. I did.

Re: 14 Years After Decriminalizing Drugs, Portugal’s Bold Risk Paid Off

#90

Post by bnegreve »

monksy wrote: post #10
jacquesm wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the Nordics have large problems with drug addiction. They are also tracking them quite well so don't compare them to let's say Romania or Bulgaria where tracking is next to non-existent.

Romania did better than Portugal. What are they doing better than Portugal? Why is Portugal's liberal policy on drugs heralded so great when it's not the best of the list? (I'm not saying that it's a bad policy but why is the article focused on pushing that policy?) Also what I want to see: What about Portugal makes it work? Could you test that assertion against a different country if you made the contextual changes…

> Why is Portugal's liberal policy on drugs heralded so great when it's not the best of the list?

The number of drug induced death has decreased over the past 15 years, and it coincide with the adoption of the liberal policy on drugs. That's what makes Portugal an interesting case study.

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