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Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#221

Post by etiam »

oh_sigh wrote: post #175
izzydata wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can only hope. This would be a great example of natural selection at work if fat unhealthy people couldn't reproduce and thinner healthy people could.

Does a 50% drop in sperm density result in a 50% drop in conception rates?

Since it's enough if a single sperm successfully makes the trip, that seems unlikely.

The situation is probably too complicated for a crude model like this to really apply well, but it seems to me the rough sketch of it should be more like playing Yahtzee and rolling for at least one six with a subset of the dice instead of all the dice. (In that case the chance to succeed is the complement of the product of all chances to fail)

I think this is a very good and relevant question. What does it actually mean for fertility? Quality of the sperm rather than quantity is probably a much more important factor for that. (What a shame that's much more difficult to assay...)

But regardless of whether it leads to a marked impact on fertility, for an important biological function to drop like this in so large populations is a big blaring air-raid siren of a signal that someone needs to sort out why and fix it.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#222

Post by jxramos »

Raphmedia wrote: post #156
nate_meurer wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may pick a nit: there are no pills in sewage streams. We're talking drugs in solution or suspension (the term "dissolved solids" is used in the water treatment industry). Drugs can very difficult to remove, and water treatment facilities are only able to remove roughly half [ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/only-half-of-drug... ].

Urine, not pills. Urine is filled with hormone and from what I've heard most water processing plants can't remove those completely. In fact, one of the pills is made of urine: "The estrogen-replacement drug Premarin, prescribed to menopausal women, is made from horse urine; in fact, the drug's name is short for PREgnant MARes' urINe". Since that the majority of female in the West are on birth control pills[1] that me…

PRE MAR IN, that is tooooo hilarious. Reality really is stranger than fiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premarin

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#223

Post by aaron695 »

cameldrv wrote: post #72

My belief is that the primary cause is environmental chemicals, specifically Phthalates and BPA (and related chemicals). The science on this is fairly conclusive. We can show that these chemicals bind to estrogen receptors, that they're present in everyone's body, and that if you're acutely exposed to a higher dose, your testosterone goes down. In my opinion, these chemicals are having social and cultural effects bey…

I'm personally disappointed on HN that this comment would receive more upvotes than downvotes.

This is a typical anti-vaxxer style of argument. It even mentions trump (sic). Which on top of that irrelevance, seriously this is the level of maturity we are at, not capitalising his name?

There 'might' be some interesting science here but point blank this comment is wrong. Like all good scaremongering there are some things worth investigating but this is leaps and bounds beyond current reality.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#224

Post by trhway »

it is biologically connected and nicely correlates with the falling testosterone levels. In addition to environmental chemicals, testosterone levels are very significantly affected by behavioral/social factors. Given that society becoming more civil is at the same time a result and a cause of lowering testosterone levels, i think that despite temporary setbacks, like the recent success of the "Make the sperm count great again" campaign, the writing is on the wall here. Anyway, given the power of current and future technology, the count of 1 is enough, and may be even that would become too unnecessary big.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#225

Post by cryoshon »

highd wrote: post #211
jakelarkin wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof should obviously be reversed! Complex, synthetic chemicals in our water, food, packaging, or furniture should be assumed harmful and disallowed until it there is sufficient evidence that they are safe. Escalating trials basically. This is what we do for pharmaceutical drugs that we ingest or contact, why don't take this approach with other man-made chemicals we are adding to our immediate ecosyste…

Our diet is full of fruits and vegetables containing thousands of complex chemicals, indistinguishable from "synthetic" chemicals, that have entered our diet far too short a time ago to have had evolutionary impact. If one wanted they could surely distill many chemicals in isolation from these naturally occurring fruits and vegetables that in concentration would have many concerning health effects. The fact that many…

>Point being, there is no reason to hold any of these chemicals to a standard higher than that of a strawberry - that is, we can give people a bunch of strawberries and say any negative effect is below some acceptable level.

ah yes, the logic that brought us Silent Spring and the children happily playing and breathing in clouds of "safe" DDT gas.

if it's from a plant or animal, it can still be plenty harmful, but at least there's a history of use without major effects. not the case with industrial chemicals...

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#226

Post by cryoshon »

nate_meurer wrote: post #109
kindadumb wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"be careful in doing your review." Says the lazy poster who just made a bunch of claims himself and didn't cite anything!

What? What exactly do you expect dekhn to cite? You expect them to prove a negative? How do you propose they do that? GP asserted that some scary chemicals cause problems (no sarcasm intended; I find phthalates and bisphenols a bit scary myself), but provided no supporting evidence. dehkn asked for evidence. Pretty simple right?

>You expect them to prove a negative? How do you propose they do that?

they do this all the time in the pharma space.

just arrange experiments on mice where they're subjected to higher and higher levels of whatever chemical until they're subjected to a level several orders of magnitude beyond any realistic hypothetical human exposure. then you cut up all the mice and see if they're different from unexposed mice.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#227

Post by evincarofautumn »

highd wrote: post #211
jakelarkin wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof should obviously be reversed! Complex, synthetic chemicals in our water, food, packaging, or furniture should be assumed harmful and disallowed until it there is sufficient evidence that they are safe. Escalating trials basically. This is what we do for pharmaceutical drugs that we ingest or contact, why don't take this approach with other man-made chemicals we are adding to our immediate ecosyste…

Our diet is full of fruits and vegetables containing thousands of complex chemicals, indistinguishable from "synthetic" chemicals, that have entered our diet far too short a time ago to have had evolutionary impact. If one wanted they could surely distill many chemicals in isolation from these naturally occurring fruits and vegetables that in concentration would have many concerning health effects. The fact that many…

This is, I’ve found, a good way to start a dialogue with people about chemophobia.

If you ask someone “Which do you think is safer: artificial vanilla or vanilla extract?” they’ll often prefer the “natural” one. But vanilla extract contains exactly the same chemical (vanillin) in addition to hundreds of other compounds, many of which are known to be irritants, hepatotoxins, and carcinogens—in high enough doses.

Of course, it’s much harder to break people of the misconception that the provenance of a chemical (synthetic or natural) matters. There seems to be some kind of innate protective disgust reaction at work. For instance, I’ve had conversations with people who say they wouldn’t be able to bring themselves to drink a glass of water if they knew it was purified from sewage. By the same token, they will drink some water that’s been imbued with some healing power by a homeopath.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#228

Post by heurist »

gorkonsine wrote: post #179
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like living in a Third World country.

It is. People who have to resort to drinking bottled water because the tap water is unsafe do live in a third world country. Draw whatever conclusion from that that you like.

To be fair even in a first world system it's a good idea to filter drinking water again before consuming it. A countertop filtration system is much less expensive than one month of OP's bottled water. $80-200 for the initial setup, $30 every six months to replace the filters... cheaper than $60/mo, probably produces cleaner water in most cases.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#229

Post by heurist »

astrange wrote: post #204
abledon wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ruthlessly eat healthy whole foods , limit junk media, daily muscle/tendon/bone strengthening exercise regime on a 'religious' level of importance. Develop a level of body intelligence to combat the dullness learnt from sitting in front of screens for most our developing and adult lives. Learn to feel the inside of your body, the tensions in your head/cranial sacral nerves, inside your tendons, feel the bone marrow a…

Can we have an executive summary?

Exercise, practice discipline, socialize, and "eat food, not too much, mostly plants."

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#230

Post by 300bps »

dekhn wrote: post #74
cameldrv wrote: post #72

My belief is that the primary cause is environmental chemicals, specifically Phthalates and BPA (and related chemicals). The science on this is fairly conclusive. We can show that these chemicals bind to estrogen receptors, that they're present in everyone's body, and that if you're acutely exposed to a higher dose, your testosterone goes down. In my opinion, these chemicals are having social and cultural effects bey…

The linkage between consumption of these chemicals, and their exact nature of harm, is not well established- it's not "fairly conclusive" at all. What we have is a bunch of in vitro and in vivo studies, but not actual epidemiological evidence of the quality required to make rational policy decisions. If you believe otherwise, I'm happy to ready any high quality studies you can find. Pleaes don't just cherry pick a fe…

I would think unlimited access to high definition porn in any variety for completely free would be more responsible for lowered sperm count than chemical exposure.
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