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Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#211

Post by highd »

jakelarkin wrote: post #196
dekhn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linkage between consumption of these chemicals, and their exact nature of harm, is not well established- it's not "fairly conclusive" at all. What we have is a bunch of in vitro and in vivo studies, but not actual epidemiological evidence of the quality required to make rational policy decisions. If you believe otherwise, I'm happy to ready any high quality studies you can find. Pleaes don't just cherry pick a fe…

The burden of proof should obviously be reversed! Complex, synthetic chemicals in our water, food, packaging, or furniture should be assumed harmful and disallowed until it there is sufficient evidence that they are safe. Escalating trials basically. This is what we do for pharmaceutical drugs that we ingest or contact, why don't take this approach with other man-made chemicals we are adding to our immediate ecosyste…

Our diet is full of fruits and vegetables containing thousands of complex chemicals, indistinguishable from "synthetic" chemicals, that have entered our diet far too short a time ago to have had evolutionary impact.

If one wanted they could surely distill many chemicals in isolation from these naturally occurring fruits and vegetables that in concentration would have many concerning health effects. The fact that many don't worry about this is largely because this research program has not been attempted.

Point being, there is no reason to hold any of these chemicals to a standard higher than that of a strawberry - that is, we can give people a bunch of strawberries and say any negative effect is below some acceptable level. And, in fact, we have found many "natural" foods containing absurdly high levels of arsenic and other dangerous compounds, and that has affected their preparation for consumption. The scientific process has in this way even outperformed the naturalism heuristic.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#212

Post by astrange »

andreime wrote: post #44
Fishman343 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say eating healthier, but obesity and diabetes are at all time highs in most of the western world, I don't think it's that cut and dry.

We're also a lot more sedentary. I am convinced without being able to produce proof, that this is the biggest problem - the lack of physical work. I used to believe we eat shit, but my ancestors were really poor and basically ate just a few food types most of their life. I think I've come a long way and am convinced that, even if I were to eat a very occasional McDonalds, it'd still be eating a lot better. It's a lot…

McDonalds is nutritionally well-balanced if you don't get a drink or fries.

I don't see how food being diverse makes it healthier though. You diversify against risk, is there risk here?

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#213

Post by trhway »

nateconq wrote: post #114
izzydata wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can only hope. This would be a great example of natural selection at work if fat unhealthy people couldn't reproduce and thinner healthy people could.

Only in our current environment. If food was scarce, wouldn't those who can store energy better be more likely to survive?

>If food was scarce, wouldn't those who can store energy better be more likely to survive?

it is also depends on how much more energy one has to expend to haul that stored energy around.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#214

Post by sheepmullet »

kazinator wrote: post #205
dekhn wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50% of studies can't be reproduced, and 90% are outright false (which makes you wonder about the percent that can be reproduced, but are false) :-)

"can be reproduced" means true. If you can reproduce the experiment, so that approximately the same data comes out, but the paper turns out false, that can only be because the paper makes a flawed interpretation of the data. But that has nothing to do with reproducibility; you can tell that a flawed conclusion is made from some data without reproducing the process which produces the data. If the analysis is correct a…

> "can be reproduced" means true.

Not really.

I know what you mean but that's not the same as what you are saying.

You mean consistently and reliably over a large number of studies.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#215

Post by remir »

candles12345 wrote: post #184

Could this just be due to maturation in an environment that prohibits and goes against masculinity to large extent?

We would have to define what is considered "masculinity", but I would say society definitely prohibit aggressivity, especially as more people are educated and can communicate better, more women entered the work force but also the working conditions today are more comfortable.

It would be interesting to compare testosterone levels of inmates versus men of the "outside" population. Inmates live in a much more aggressive environment, and I bet that influence their testosterone level.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#216

Post by isodude »

Zarath wrote: post #166

Turns out modernity is an extremely unhealthy environment for humans, especially men. Despite the narratives being thrown at you, we live in an incredibly "feminized" society where social stigma/violence/shaming are more powerful for the average person than plain old physical violence.

A bit of rambling but anyway.

We are used to way better standard now and I assume that leads to differences being measured differently, like what brand of clothes you have. I am no expert in the building blocks of larger societies, but it sure feels like the feminine side of things (looks, feelings) is the much more differe ting fact instead of how many logs you brought home from the forest. ( comparing very small cities and larger ones )

All the concrete manhood measuring seems to be more and more meta. If we don't have that to measure if we indeed are men, then what are we?

Maybe men as a protector has seen it's purpose through and is automatically being rid of, subdued to an example of what happens when success rate was too good. What we need now is engineers to build the machines and not masculine prepped men.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#217

Post by brownbat »

jostmey wrote: post #62
accountyaccount wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are even chemicals in our brains!

I put the word "chemicals" in quotation marks because, of course, everything is a chemical. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't pick just one chemical (e.g. BPA) and heap all the blame onto it. As a society, we have to be concerned about the potential dangers of every synthetic chemical

> potential dangers of every synthetic chemical

I wouldn't put too much importance on the synthetic / natural distinction.

Lead, tobacco, and various radioactive elements (uranium, radium, thorium, and radon) are all perfectly natural. If you were harmed by chemicals in the last century, it was probably one of them.

There are also thousands of lab-made chemicals that never make the news because they're just not harmful.

The UK-based non-profit Sense About Science has produced some literature trying to combat what they call "chemophobia," the fear of man-made chemicals:

http://www.compoundchem.com/2014/05/19/natural-vs-man-made-c...

Scientific American has tried to debunk myths about synthetic chemicals as well:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/natural-vs-s...

I mean, yeah, don't drink DDT. But don't try to make your drinking water "more natural" either, thank your city for treating it with a little bit of synthetic (and toxic in large doses) chlorine, and enjoy a day free of all-natural additives like cholera.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#218

Post by dragonwriter »

dreamdu5t wrote: post #29

I think it's simple: fat unhealthy men have lower sperm counts and America has way more fat unhealthy men over the last 40 years. Doesn't look like the meta analysis dealt with this.

> I think it's simple: fat unhealthy men have lower sperm counts and America has way more fat unhealthy men over the last 40 years.

While the US certainly has obesity epidemic, the results held across a number of countries in Europe and Oceania as well (and not in the African, Asian, and South American countries investigated; so the “Western” label is misleading, given that South America is as much part of the West as North America.)

I don't think obesity is the differentiating factor here.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#219

Post by dragonwriter »

izzydata wrote: post #137
nateconq wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in our current environment. If food was scarce, wouldn't those who can store energy better be more likely to survive?

I get what you are saying, but I don't think being fat is evidence of being able to survive in an environment of food shortages.

Polycystic ovarian syndrome, which contributes to obesity in women, seems to have adaptive advantages in famine of the type speculated upthread (and also including increased fertility then, though decreased fertility in abundant food situations.)

It's not too much of a stretch to consider that there may be metabolic conditions in men linked to obesity risk that have the same kind of advantages in reduced-food-supply situations.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#220

Post by kilroy123 »

abledon wrote: post #163
bitL wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, so what should we do? Should we daily take DHEA/GABA/Zinc etc. to compensate effect of these chemicals? Eat only food we grow/kill ourselves? Move to mountains shielded from airborne pollution?

Ruthlessly eat healthy whole foods , limit junk media, daily muscle/tendon/bone strengthening exercise regime on a 'religious' level of importance. Develop a level of body intelligence to combat the dullness learnt from sitting in front of screens for most our developing and adult lives. Learn to feel the inside of your body, the tensions in your head/cranial sacral nerves, inside your tendons, feel the bone marrow a…

Have any links for all this? Would love to read more.
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