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Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

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Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#281

Post by Chris2048 »

vertex-four wrote: post #221
Chris2048 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then campaign against it. Until then, "corporate expectation" is a convenient excuse, despite the fact that many corporations will fold in the face of any social pressure. Like how "men" are claimed to be responsible for pressuring women into unrealistic body images, despite the fashion industry being run, and chosen by women.

We have been for decades? Like, this was a part of second-wave feminism half a decade ago. It's hardly a new idea.

There are lots of ideas in the world, I'm talking about actual action.

Various celebs will back a "ban bossy" campaign, but millions of women are forced to feign sexual availability against their wishes, and barely any motivation to protests it?

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#282

Post by DanBC »

peoplewindow wrote: post #279
matt4077 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most famous study (by Kanin)[..] And that study is deeply flawed: that one small midwestern police department used polygraphs on accusers. That's a practice that has long been shunned because (a) polygraphs are (now) known to usually find the investigator's opinion reflected in statistical noise, and (b) the victims (rightfully) see the test as an accusation and prefer to recant for fear of prosecution. The stu…

I'm aware of all the criticisms of the Kanin study. None of them seem valid. If the USA believes polygraphs are unreliable they should be banned from all usage, for all types of crimes and government screening. That hasn't happened. Instead, people who didn't like Kanin's conclusions - and noted that many rape accusers prefer to drop their accusations rather than take a polygraph test - decided it should be banned fo…

> with the self-reported perceptions of police (that false accusations are very common), not just in that study town but across the USA and in other countries as well, like the UK

UK police are pretty clear that false allegations of rape are very rare, and are much rarer than either occurances of rape or true reports.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#283

Post by dragonwriter »

peoplewindow wrote: post #279
matt4077 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most famous study (by Kanin)[..] And that study is deeply flawed: that one small midwestern police department used polygraphs on accusers. That's a practice that has long been shunned because (a) polygraphs are (now) known to usually find the investigator's opinion reflected in statistical noise, and (b) the victims (rightfully) see the test as an accusation and prefer to recant for fear of prosecution. The stu…

I'm aware of all the criticisms of the Kanin study. None of them seem valid. If the USA believes polygraphs are unreliable they should be banned from all usage, for all types of crimes and government screening. That hasn't happened. Instead, people who didn't like Kanin's conclusions - and noted that many rape accusers prefer to drop their accusations rather than take a polygraph test - decided it should be banned fo…

> If the USA believes polygraphs are unreliable

Polygraphs are unreliable. Countries are aggregates to which beliefs can be attribute only by misleading anthropomorphization, however.

> they should be banned from all usage, for all types of crimes and government screening.

They should be. We're not actually there, though a majority of state and federal courts hold them as inadmissible per se, IIRC, largely due to their unreliability.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#284

Post by Turing_Machine »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #264
Turing_Machine wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost never. It does happen, but it's so rare that it generally makes headlines when it does.

The false conviction rate is estimated to be >4%. http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/04/28/how-many-...

That's 4% for people who are sentenced to death.

The rate for those sentenced for lesser crimes is likely much higher, due to plea bargaining ("plead guilty to petty theft or we'll charge you with grand theft").

That's not really what we're talking about here, though. We're talking about the rate of conviction of those who are proven conclusively to have lied resulting in someone else being convicted of a crime.

Generally such people receive no consequences at all.

For instance, as far as I know the woman in this case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Rape_on_Campus

has not been charged with anything, despite falsely accusing an entire fraternity house of rape.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#285

Post by mcappleton »

tajen wrote: post #255
freeflight wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without belittling the severity of rape, yes I believe it can actually be quite more harmful/destructive. Falsely accused rarely get rehabilitated even when it turns out they had been innocent, their career, their reputation, their social circles, it will be all ruined and with that comes distress of the mind. People are quick to throw around guilt, once that's in the room your reputation will be sullied forever as e…

This is horror. We need to stop it. I still don't get why rapes generate the kind of immediate and massive solidarity from society that men's life doesn't.

Men get drafted and get their arms and legs blown off, women can stay home. Spare the women and children in war.

I don't think it's cultural. Most men have an innate desire to protect women, and treat them with special favor. This was the historical way women were protected before they had voting rights. Now, they have both political power, and men still tend to give them the special favor they had before. So it leads to an imbalance in society

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#286

Post by philh »

adekok wrote: post #276
philh wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not interested in talking about your claim. I'm talking about how you replied to someone else's claim. > That claim is provably false. I explained why, using examples. No you didn't. You gave some examples where the proposed policy would not have the side effect. You didn't show that it would never have the side effect. > That cannot possibly be concluded from what I said. "The exact opposite of this policy", in…

> You didn't show that it would never have the side effect. I used the example of insurance fraud. Please pay attention. Do we prosecute insurance fraud? Yes. Do such prosecutions dissuade victims from making real claims? No. Or maybe you think that sexual assault is somehow magic. That prosecuting proven fraudsters in that case will somehow dissuade real victims from making claims. If so, you have to prove your posi…

Dropping the "proven" thread because it's not what I want to focus on.

> Or maybe you think

I'm deliberately avoiding taking an object-level position.

> If he's against charging fraudsters

You're still turning a descriptive statement into a prescriptive one. peteretep did not advocate any policy in the comment you replied to. Among the policies he did not advocate is "we should never charge any fraudster". Another policy he did not advocate is "we should be extremely careful which fraudsters we prosecute, to avoid of chilling effects".

He did not advocate a policy, but you took his comment as advocating an extreme policy.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#287

Post by peoplewindow »

DanBC wrote: post #282
peoplewindow wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of all the criticisms of the Kanin study. None of them seem valid. If the USA believes polygraphs are unreliable they should be banned from all usage, for all types of crimes and government screening. That hasn't happened. Instead, people who didn't like Kanin's conclusions - and noted that many rape accusers prefer to drop their accusations rather than take a polygraph test - decided it should be banned fo…

> with the self-reported perceptions of police (that false accusations are very common), not just in that study town but across the USA and in other countries as well, like the UK UK police are pretty clear that false allegations of rape are very rare, and are much rarer than either occurances of rape or true reports.

That's incorrect. The UK government did a study of this, which can be found here:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100408125722/htt...

The study is deeply biased, doesn't try to hide it and quite clearly tries to tell politicians what they want to hear. Nonetheless it has a lot of useful data and states two things of interest in this thread:

1 - the false reporting rate is stated as being about 10% in the UK.

2 - all police interviewed for the the study believed that figure was far too low.

With respect to point (1) - once again this is a very, very generous definition of "false". For instance it doesn't include cases where someone reports a rape on behalf of the alleged victim and the alleged victim later states that no rape in fact took place. This is clearly a false accusation and it'd be just as distressing to the accused, but isn't counted as false.

The inconsistency between the figures the study reports and the perception of police themselves is noted and discussed in the study:

"Even if all those designated false by the police were accepted (a figure of approximately ten per cent), this is still much lower than the rate perceived by police officers interviewed in this study"

Example quotes from working police officers:

"I do deal with a lot of allegations that don’t go anywhere, because it transpires that it’s not quite a rape, certainly with juveniles ... we spend a lot of time dealing with allegations of rape that really aren’t rape, that take a lot of time up. I would say a good half that come through are not genuine ones."

A different officer:

"We have a lot of allegations that are then retracted, we have a lot of allegations that it comes out in the wash one way or another that it was consensual."

And a different one:

"Well, honestly, it’s because most of them are not telling the truth ... I mean I have dealt with hundreds and hundreds of rapes in the last few years, and I can honestly probably count on both hands the ones that I believe are truly genuine."

There are no quotes or interviews with police officers who believe the 10% figure is accurate or think it's too high.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#288

Post by vertex-four »

Chris2048 wrote: post #281
vertex-four wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have been for decades? Like, this was a part of second-wave feminism half a decade ago. It's hardly a new idea.

There are lots of ideas in the world, I'm talking about actual action. Various celebs will back a "ban bossy" campaign, but millions of women are forced to feign sexual availability against their wishes, and barely any motivation to protests it?

There was, again, actual action. There is still actual action. It didn't, and still doesn't, get anywhere. In fact, it developed quite directly into the idea of the "ugly feminist", a stereotype that exists to this day. Funny that.

Fact of the matter is, if you employ women who don't wear makeup, your clients and customers will think less of your business. You'll lose money and some positivity associated with your brand. Your managers will think less of your female workers - so will their coworkers, no matter the official policy. This isn't the sort of thing that gets changed by a line in a policy document - this is the sort of thing that needs widespread social change.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#289

Post by peoplewindow »

dragonwriter wrote: post #283
peoplewindow wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of all the criticisms of the Kanin study. None of them seem valid. If the USA believes polygraphs are unreliable they should be banned from all usage, for all types of crimes and government screening. That hasn't happened. Instead, people who didn't like Kanin's conclusions - and noted that many rape accusers prefer to drop their accusations rather than take a polygraph test - decided it should be banned fo…

> If the USA believes polygraphs are unreliable Polygraphs are unreliable. Countries are aggregates to which beliefs can be attribute only by misleading anthropomorphization, however. > they should be banned from all usage, for all types of crimes and government screening. They should be. We're not actually there, though a majority of state and federal courts hold them as inadmissible per se, IIRC, largely due to the…

That's certainly a fine position to take but it doesn't change the results of the study: 40% of complainants admitted they lied. Unless you think people were lying about having lied, and also making up an explanation for why they lied, just because of polygraphs?

edit: I should note something else here. Kanin's study has an appendix where he reports a similar analysis on two university campuses. In this case polygraphs were not used and were thus not a factor. They also used the same definition of false (only the accuser can render an accusation false). The false reporting rate in both these cases was 50% - higher!

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#290

Post by adekok »

philh wrote: post #286
adekok wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You didn't show that it would never have the side effect. I used the example of insurance fraud. Please pay attention. Do we prosecute insurance fraud? Yes. Do such prosecutions dissuade victims from making real claims? No. Or maybe you think that sexual assault is somehow magic. That prosecuting proven fraudsters in that case will somehow dissuade real victims from making claims. If so, you have to prove your posi…

Dropping the "proven" thread because it's not what I want to focus on. > Or maybe you think I'm deliberately avoiding taking an object-level position. > If he's against charging fraudsters You're still turning a descriptive statement into a prescriptive one. peteretep did not advocate any policy in the comment you replied to. Among the policies he did not advocate is "we should never charge any fraudster". Another po…

> He did not advocate a policy, but you took his comment as advocating an extreme policy.

That's pedantically true, and more honestly false.

Are you honestly going to claim that his description of "putting off victims" advocates for no position? That's ridiculous. He explicitly said ... which is generally thought to be not a good thing.

Are you next going to claim that he thinks putting off victims is not a good thing... but he isn't really advocating against punishing fraudsters even if it "puts off" victims?

And this is all ignoring the point that his claim was false.

Honestly, I find this nit-picking to be utterly ludicrous, to the point of irrational.

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