How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit • Hacker News Board

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#191

Post by dboreham » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 2:18 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #167

thebokehwokeh2 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> foxnews and the nytimes are just propagandists like any other This is a textbook example of the lazy, uneducated thinking that causes fear and outrage. Lazy lazy lazy false equivalence. To say that "they're all the same" is absolutely not the case and nor will it ever be. The sooner people become more discerning of the information that they consume, the better off we all will be. There is an extremely large gulf in…

I'll get myself in trouble, but the main difference between Fox News and the NYT is that the NYT is far more effective at disguising its bias. Let's face it, Fox News doesn't even try. My advice to you is to follow foreign news services and compare the news you get. The biggest challenge, unfortunately, is that you have to dig a bit because lately English language news is dominated by stories from Reuters and AP. You…

Which sources would you recommend? The BBC and The Guardian are foreign and have their own news gathering networks but for the most part seem similar to the NYT. If it helps I can read French as well as English.

When I was a kid I listened to Radio Moscow and to go honest found it not that much different from the BBC..

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#192

Post by jackvalentine » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 2:22 AM UTC

karllager wrote: post #80

As a kid, I grew up in a country with almost no advertising. Repeat after me: No ads in the streets, in the TV, in the radio, nowhere. One day we found a magazine (from another country), which contained ads. Two people smoking cigarettes in a strangely alien world, some kind of jungle - or a safari, maybe. This image was so strange in many ways: Why is it there in a magazine, that was about something completely diffe…

The territory government here asked for public submissions regarding the possibility of relaxing restrictions on outdoor display advertising. It received more submissions than any other it appears: http://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004...

While I haven't read every one, most submissions seem to be against relaxing restrictions and in favor of tightening them up.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#193

Post by seanwilson » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 2:42 AM UTC

moduspol wrote: post #178

datagram wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like reviews and word-of-mouth can and already do a good job of all this. When I find out about new things, it's generally through social networks. And when I'm looking to buy something new I usually look for reviews. > How will I promote my new movie? Or book? The same way that people do today. Talk shows, trailers (which you let people organically share, rather than paying to put it in front of peopl…

> It seems to me like reviews and word-of-mouth can and already do a good job of all this. They do now, as part of a society that includes advertising. That word of mouth comes as a result of people being aware of things. Reviewers focus on reviewing things people are interested in reading about. All of these benefit from advertising. > Talk shows, trailers (which you let people organically share, rather than paying…

I agree with you. Obviously I'm against manipulative, deceptive and obnoxious advertising but it's beneficial to consumers and companies for consumers to find out about new products through ads that will save them time, save them money, be enjoyable etc.

It doesn't seem realistic at all to me that someone would invest piles of money into a product that solved a problem people didn't know they have or significantly improves on an existing product where you're only route to communicate this with customers would be to ask for reviews, hope that your target market actively looks for reviews and hope word of mouth spreads.

Don't we hear all the time on hackernews about how building a great product isn't enough if you don't have a marketing strategy?

I find it hard how you can disagree with ads for entertainment especially. Why would you be against knowing a sequel to a movie or game you like but don't actively follow just came out?

There must be some happy middle ground between obnoxious privacy invading ads and no ads at all.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#194

Post by awalton » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 2:42 AM UTC

jackvalentine wrote: post #192

karllager wrote: post #80

As a kid, I grew up in a country with almost no advertising. Repeat after me: No ads in the streets, in the TV, in the radio, nowhere. One day we found a magazine (from another country), which contained ads. Two people smoking cigarettes in a strangely alien world, some kind of jungle - or a safari, maybe. This image was so strange in many ways: Why is it there in a magazine, that was about something completely diffe…

The territory government here asked for public submissions regarding the possibility of relaxing restrictions on outdoor display advertising. It received more submissions than any other it appears: http://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004... While I haven't read every one, most submissions seem to be against relaxing restrictions and in favor of tightening them up.

The problem is that companies can tangibly prove the benefit, even if it's minuscule (imagine if 1:10000 car ads will generate a sell at best, that's still better than no advertising), but the citizenry have a hard time proving the opposite - that having a sanctuary from advertising is actually a good thing. And because of that, I fully suspect ads to continue infiltrating our American (and British, and Australian) lives.

Even privacy is easier to advocate for than the intangible peace of mind an ad-free space offers. Even if studies end up proving that advertising rots the brain and keeps us too engaged, even if it is elucidated as one of the causes of obesity and poor sleep hygiene and attention deficit syndromes... companies will simply argue it's too big of a hit to their bottom line to quit, and that will be the end of the discussion.

...and people wonder why AdBlocking continues to grow online.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#195

Post by BigJono » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 2:48 AM UTC

jimjimjim wrote: post #185

moduspol wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ads on tv do not show new things. They push brand. brand is mother, brand is father. This is a platitude. > you can't deny (well you can but you shouldn't) that the vast majority of ads are all brand. Maybe it is--it's just meaningless to my point. Even if 99% of ads are all entrenched megacorps reminding people they exist, that other 1% could be Netflix disrupting Comcast, or Uber/Lyft disrupting taxis, or whateve…

>Imagine how much more effective that off-brand would be if it could tell consumers about its lower price or higher quality, rather than having to just hope they found out somehow... versus a known competitor and brand. imagine you have an army of 100 and you are against an army of 1000. now imagine how much more effective you would be if everyone had machine guns instead of swords.

I'm not so sure that's the analogy you're after. You'd have a much, much better chance of winning with the guns, unless you're fighting on a perfectly flat field (in which case you're toast either way). I don't think I've ever seen a realistic example of somebody managing to take out two people at once in a sword fight, let alone 10.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#196

Post by seanwilson » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 3:00 AM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #182

ereyes01 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shared the article in my Facebook feed. It will reach at least a couple of friends that are habitual troll victims. I guess to your point, that probably won't stop them from being victims/easy bait. At least they'll read it, hopefully.

I highly doubt it will matter. I was at the dentist's office about 6 months ago, and as I'd had a few dental procedures done over a spread-out timeline, I'd made friends with the dental assistants. We were talking about the news (which was on in the background) and I cautioned the lady at the desk to not put too much stock in it, and to wait around for updates before drawing any conclusions. She asked why, and I expl…

We need to promote critical thinking skills somehow (obviously a difficult task though). I don't see how it's a good strategy to simply accept a population lacks critical thinking skills and the only way forward is the impossible goal of stopping all misleading news from reaching people.

The people that believe obviously misleading news are just as much at fault as the ones producing the news.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#197

Post by branchless » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 3:32 AM UTC

karllager wrote: post #80

As a kid, I grew up in a country with almost no advertising. Repeat after me: No ads in the streets, in the TV, in the radio, nowhere. One day we found a magazine (from another country), which contained ads. Two people smoking cigarettes in a strangely alien world, some kind of jungle - or a safari, maybe. This image was so strange in many ways: Why is it there in a magazine, that was about something completely diffe…

I have no TV. When I see an advert if I'm round someone's house or something like this, when you have not seen adverts for a while, they just look ridiculous. Some person telling you with utmost urgency about something so trivial.

I don't know why this is, but when you step back and are not used to adverts, when you do see them they just seem so transparently pathetic.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#198

Post by branchless » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 3:33 AM UTC

shostack wrote: post #104

karllager wrote: post #80

As a kid, I grew up in a country with almost no advertising. Repeat after me: No ads in the streets, in the TV, in the radio, nowhere. One day we found a magazine (from another country), which contained ads. Two people smoking cigarettes in a strangely alien world, some kind of jungle - or a safari, maybe. This image was so strange in many ways: Why is it there in a magazine, that was about something completely diffe…

I had similar thinking about how alien that would be in a previous discussion around service culture in the US vs. Germany. In the US, it is expected that employees in service businesses (think coffee shops, grocery stores, etc.) put on a smiling face and pretend to love their jobs. In Germany, I was told that is unheard of because it is thought of as inhumane to force someone to pretend they love their job like that…

Agreed. A friend mocked British service standards the other day and I said that this showed people hadn't completely given up. It's a form of resistance.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#199

Post by transposed » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 3:43 AM UTC

I'm pretty good at not falling victim to this. I don't check facebook. I don't watch TV or the news. I don't listen to the radio. I have a suite of ad-blocking technology. My attention is entirely mine to direct.

Instead I read, listen to podcasts (which are sponsored oftentimes, but it's more relevant and less intrusive), watch recordings of episodes/streams without commercials.

I believe I feel better because of this, and have more knowledge and skills. But I also sometimes feel like I live under a rock when I miss facebook reminders of birthdays, and "haven't heard" about current events that are blaring across all channels.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#200

Post by jancsika » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 3:45 AM UTC

shostack wrote: post #104

karllager wrote: post #80

As a kid, I grew up in a country with almost no advertising. Repeat after me: No ads in the streets, in the TV, in the radio, nowhere. One day we found a magazine (from another country), which contained ads. Two people smoking cigarettes in a strangely alien world, some kind of jungle - or a safari, maybe. This image was so strange in many ways: Why is it there in a magazine, that was about something completely diffe…

I had similar thinking about how alien that would be in a previous discussion around service culture in the US vs. Germany. In the US, it is expected that employees in service businesses (think coffee shops, grocery stores, etc.) put on a smiling face and pretend to love their jobs. In Germany, I was told that is unheard of because it is thought of as inhumane to force someone to pretend they love their job like that…

If I had to work a shit job like grocery store clerk, I'd much prefer an ineffectual dolt of a boss telling me to smile than I would a German realist boss telling me a smile isn't a requirement of my employment.