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How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

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Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advertising is a fact of life, though. Without it, there's no way to inform potential customers of a new brand or product. I mean, imagine if it all disappeared tomorrow. Wouldn't people just stick to the megacorps and established brands they already know? Wouldn't this make it even that much tougher for a Netflix to compete with a Comcast, or an Uber/Lyft to compete with an entrenched taxi industry? How would Dollar…

advertising works in favor of the system/status quo/megacorps. not the little guy. Ads on tv do not show new things. They push brand. brand is mother, brand is father.

I guess to me that comes off as a meaningless platitude. Ads on TV (and other mediums) absolutely do show new things, including each of the things I noted in the very comment you responded to.

Megacorps benefit from pushing brand, but they'd benefit even more from nobody being able to push brand, because they already have one established.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#172
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they will, they'll turn off the news completely and follow "news" about other stuff instead. Sports, video games, hobbies, they'll ignore current events and politics or anything else they might find anxiety inducing. That's what I do anyway, I'm much happier for it.

Could we build a plugin that alters headlines to reflect reality?

thats why i made this : http://TrumpTweets.io - is powered by caring humans

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of push versus pull though. If I know I want a product, I can search for reviews and recommendations, (half of which I assume are astroturfed, but I'm counting those as "ads" which would disappear in this hypothetical.)

How will I promote my new movie? Or book? How would I know to search for a Netflix or Uber or Dollar Shave Club or Game of Thrones? I wouldn't, until someone else told me about it. And they wouldn't tell me about it unless they found out somehow. And how could you possibly differentiate between grassroots interest and astroturfing, particularly online? Besides, how many months go by with you happily using your razor…

It seems to me like reviews and word-of-mouth can and already do a good job of all this. When I find out about new things, it's generally through social networks. And when I'm looking to buy something new I usually look for reviews.

> How will I promote my new movie? Or book?

The same way that people do today. Talk shows, trailers (which you let people organically share, rather than paying to put it in front of people), movie/book reviewers.

> Besides, how many months go by with you happily using your razor before you sit down to research whether there are better options?

I feel like you're countering your own point here. Buying a new razor when you're already happy with the one you're using is exactly the kind of consumerism that advertising encourages.

> We've already got this dearth of creativity and risk-taking in Hollywood. Imagine how much worse it'd be if they couldn't advertise something new!

I disagree. Imagine if advertising didn't exist, and the only way to get the word out about new movies was through movie reviews, and so studios were actually encouraged to make good movies. I think we would have a lot less riding on established IP.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

advertising works in favor of the system/status quo/megacorps. not the little guy. Ads on tv do not show new things. They push brand. brand is mother, brand is father.

I guess to me that comes off as a meaningless platitude. Ads on TV (and other mediums) absolutely do show new things, including each of the things I noted in the very comment you responded to. Megacorps benefit from pushing brand, but they'd benefit even more from nobody being able to push brand, because they already have one established.

no platitudes around here. you can't deny (well you can but you shouldn't) that the vast majority of ads are all brand.

Not talking about absolutes or semantics but:

Without the Big Advertising people would drift off-brand. maybe boredom, maybe trying what their friend uses, maybe (surely not) be affected by price and quality.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#175
post #73

A nicely laid out and illustrated article that's well written. That's about the best I can say. The worst is why? Who is the audience for this? I firmly believe that if you found this article by clicking on a link on the HN homepage, then you already know all this. It's exactly the kind of article we've been reading about in one form or another for 20 years. If you didn't find this article on the homepage of HN, then…

Judging by the comments it's not entirely preaching to the choir. It's also hard not to notice that HN is one of the highest concentrations you can find online of the very people who build this system.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#176

I and I am sure a good percentage of the internet population always struggle with articles like this. I don't have an ad blocker, don't have any 'ad-free' subscriptions to anything, yet I never click an ad while at the same time am not particularly bothered by them. They're just noise, and since they register as basically whitespace in my head, noise easily ignored. I don't feel 'at war' when I go online, and even if…

Just because you don't click on an ad or think you ignore them doesn't mean you're not being manipulated by them. Subconscious influence/manipulation is more powerful and prevalent than most people realize. The most skillful forms of influence are invisible to the target.

It was a common saying when I worked adjacent to online advertising that "The guys who think it doesn't work on them are the biggest marks of them all". The reasoning was that they have no defenses and think because they don't click on ads (who does?) that they are immune to social pressure, cognitive biases around awareness, status concerns.

After I heard this and started paying attention I'm completely sold, people who say this are never living lives that look remotely like they aren't affected by advertising.

That's not even counting the fact that it doesn't have to work on everyone, just enough people so that those who don't conform are punished by becoming outsiders with all the social, financial and professional consequences that entails.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nor does it mean advertisers can't track your behavior after the fact. A conversion event post ad impression without a click is called a "view-through conversion" and is a cornerstone metric of most display advertising because the bulk of performance from display is likely to be view-through vs. click-based. Advertisers without "hard" conversion metrics can still measure uplift just as easily.

I would like to think that no, my spending tends to be largely on things that do not tend to be advertised (craft beer and bills, mainly). But no doubt you are right. Still, if its so passive that I can barely detect it happening, all power to them.

Which craft beers? Most of them are manufactured by huge corporate breweries.

Do you own a car? What kind? Is it an older honda civic or something similar? In North America your choice of cars is almost certainly the result of advertising, both on you and on the people who's opinion about you you care about.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will I promote my new movie? Or book? How would I know to search for a Netflix or Uber or Dollar Shave Club or Game of Thrones? I wouldn't, until someone else told me about it. And they wouldn't tell me about it unless they found out somehow. And how could you possibly differentiate between grassroots interest and astroturfing, particularly online? Besides, how many months go by with you happily using your razor…

It seems to me like reviews and word-of-mouth can and already do a good job of all this. When I find out about new things, it's generally through social networks. And when I'm looking to buy something new I usually look for reviews. > How will I promote my new movie? Or book? The same way that people do today. Talk shows, trailers (which you let people organically share, rather than paying to put it in front of peopl…

> It seems to me like reviews and word-of-mouth can and already do a good job of all this.

They do now, as part of a society that includes advertising. That word of mouth comes as a result of people being aware of things. Reviewers focus on reviewing things people are interested in reading about. All of these benefit from advertising.

> Talk shows, trailers (which you let people organically share, rather than paying to put it in front of people), movie/book reviewers.

We're going to get in pretty deep if people appearing on talk shows to promote something doesn't count as an advertisement.

Even trailers have to be promoted somehow. They run the trailers in ads because they're effective! They're effective because a significant chunk of people wouldn't have seen the movie, who otherwise would have if they had known about it. They would have known about it if the general word of mouth and close friends on social networks were enough. But it isn't. Clearly reviews and word of mouth are not sufficient.

> I feel like you're countering your own point here. Buying a new razor when you're already happy with the one you're using is exactly the kind of consumerism that advertising encourages.

Me continuing to drive to a Target to pay $7 for a four-blade razor with special proprietary blade cartridges because I assume better options don't exist due to not spending time researching the purchase is not reduced materialism or consumerism. It's just protecting the status quo.

> I disagree. Imagine if advertising didn't exist, and the only way to get the word out about new movies was through movie reviews, and so studios were actually encouraged to make good movies. I think we would have a lot less riding on established IP.

Putting aside that movie reviews are not as inherently separate from advertising as you're suggesting, I totally disagree. Only a small subset of moviegoers actually read reviews ahead of time and use that to influence a decision. We'd only see more people showing up to see brands they already know well (e.g. Star Wars, Transformers) and less likely to attend movies they've heard / seen nothing about. The people who don't value reviews won't suddenly start valuing them, and the gap between "things movie critics like" and "thing general moviegoers like" won't close.

Same with buying a soda from a company other than Coke/Pepsi. Same with buying an unknown shampoo brand, or an unknown car brand, etc. Except it's really even worse in other industries because people aren't looking for or expecting a new shampoo. And so we just stick to whatever we've been buying, even if it's some huge megacorp milking their brand because competitors have no platform to make the case that they're better.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#179
post #133

Worship power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. But the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it's that they're unconscious. They are default settings. They're the kin…

It's strange how many people in this thread are discussing concepts such as 'choice', 'do', 'freedom'. Perhaps I've been too deep down the philosophical/metaphysical rabbit hole, but AFAIK there's only three options: 1) Deep down (past the turtles-all-the-way-deep) there's only chaos 2) Free will and alternative options exist 3) It's only predetermined order past the turtles. And 2 is somehow impossibly situated on t…

1 and 3 can also be the same depending on what time actually turns out to be. It's not like there was someone who did the predetermination after all.

Re: How Fear and Outrage Are Sold for Profit

#180
post #3

I don't understand why so many people are addicted to outrage, anger and fear. For a while I played along but then I quickly realized that all this stuff is manufactured to manipulate people. Now I can't even stand watching CNN or watching a campaign ad.

Humans are at their core emotional creatures. You don't get engagement with logic and facts. Instead you go after emotional stories. It takes immense mental effort to see through these stories and to hold back the immediate emotional responses. Many people have no clue that they are being manipulated in this way.

There is also the symmetrical problem of not reacting strongly to a story that deserves it. Plenty of people, it seemed, were quite non-reactive about the Snowden disclosures. It just wasn't an exciting news story, whether you were for or against him.

(This, I think, is the real lesson of computing in the modern era, that subjects will not object to being surveilled if they don't notice it. The abstract argument against it is predicated on possible future action, and the inability to stop it.)

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