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SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

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Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#201

Post by wuliwong »

regulation_d wrote: post #186
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should they also have the choice to take non-FDA approved drugs?

Securities is my go-to example of government regulation that has a net-positive market effect. Whatever we lose in market efficiency we more than make up for in market confidence.

If I were to apply the idea initially expressed to your comment it would be to say "why not give people the choice to invest in non-SEC regulated markets." If the effect is net-positive, than why would you have to force people to choose SEC regulated markets.

Obviously if it was not actually positive then not having the choice is pretty crappy.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#202

Post by jameskegel »

darawk wrote: post #75
Animats wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that would be unwise. In general, US securities laws cover anything that looks or works something like a security. There have been clever attempts to get around this before. They didn't work.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEC_v._W._J._Howey_Co .

You're right, but in the case of things like Storj and Sia, for instance, the ICO token is used to pay for the services offered by the network. What it really is, is a tradable pre-sale. It's as if you could trade the perks offered by a Kickstarter. I'm not sure if that would make it exempt or not, but it is an interesting legal question.

Sia is NOT ethereum. Don't call it a token

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#203

Post by api »

Animats wrote: post #21
joeyspn wrote: post #2

BOOM! the game just changed... > In light of the facts and circumstances, the agency has decided not to bring charges in this instance, or make findings of violations in the Report, but rather to caution the industry and market participants: the federal securities laws apply to those who offer and sell securities in the United States, regardless whether the issuing entity is a traditional company or a decentralized a…

Yes. The SEC is indicating that they're not going to apply this retroactively. Any upcoming Initial Coin Offering to US persons, though, is in trouble. Like all the ones listed here.[1] [1] https://www.icoalert.com/

Was thinking the other day: could someone prove by signing with some wallet keys or moving some coin that they control enough crypto wealth to be an accredited investor? Could you do an ICO that required that?

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#204

Post by Jabanga »

dragonwriter wrote: post #131
Jabanga wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A case for mandatory vaccination can be made, as it addresses public health threats, which are negative externalities. Meat inspection cannot. You can choose to eat only government certified meat and not suffer any ill effects from non-certified meat being available on the market. Just because you want products certified by a government body to be safe doesn't mean you have a right to force others to live according t…

> A case for mandatory vaccination can be made, as it addresses public health threats, which are negative externalities. Meat inspection cannot. Meat inspection deals with a different failure of ideal markets than direct externalities, to wit, information asymmetry. However,the market inefficiency produced by information assymetry itself has negative externalities, so it's not unrelated.

People, left to their own devices, manage complexity effectively.

For example, most people don't understand how microprocessors work. But this is addressed through an effective and spontaneous process of delegating responsibility.

The government can play a positive role in helping manage this complexity, by providing certification programs, and freely available public information. What it should not do is constrain the actions of individuals, by mandating that a particular standard be used.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#205

Post by taysic »

oneplane wrote: post #30
dmitrygr wrote: post #5

Good. This should help bring some sanity and accountability. they were both quite needed

Why? Nobody is forcing crypto currenency on anyone. I get that registered companies might have some other deal with the govenment and with hacker organisations, but a free and open (and non-country-bound) system should really not be 'managed' by some random organisation in a random country.

I remember after the ethereum flash crash how many people were saying "screw decentralization, I'm getting a lawyer". Those sort of values go out the window when the person who loses, loses a lot. The laws are in place for the benefit of all

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#206

Post by regulation_d »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #124
ilaksh wrote: post #82

The SEC should show that it protects everyone's rights and not just large firms with piles of cash to pay to them and to pay expensive lawyers. Otherwise we have to assume that this is largely about trying to tax things. The way they can do this is by making a real effort to update their technical, documentation, and regulatory programs. Is there a straightforward way to do an Edgar filing that doesn't require a bunc…

> the SEC should show that it protects everyone's rights One sure-fire way to get the SEC to go absolutely ballistic is to hurt mom-and-pop investors. This is why the commission was founded [1] and why securities law maintains "accredited investor" thresholds, controversial as they are. > Is there a straightforward way to do an Edgar filing that doesn't require a bunch of training? Securities lawyers are a few thousa…

>> How much do the company registrations and filings actually cost? >It depends on how much you raise. Right now it's 0.01159% [4].

Those might be the fees. The cost of a registration is much higher. Gotta put food on the table of all those lawyers and accountants.

https://www.pwc.com/us/en/deals/publications/assets/pwc-cost...

Certainly, money can be raised more cheaply with exemptions, but those come with their own tradeoffs.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#207

Post by Jabanga »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #148
Jabanga wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A case for mandatory vaccination can be made, as it addresses public health threats, which are negative externalities. Meat inspection cannot. You can choose to eat only government certified meat and not suffer any ill effects from non-certified meat being available on the market. Just because you want products certified by a government body to be safe doesn't mean you have a right to force others to live according t…

There is a massive negative externality for allowing scammers to run free in a situation where the upfront ability to assess fitness-of-goods is lacking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons the money quote being The cost of dishonesty, therefore, lies not only in the amount by which the purchaser is cheated; the cost also must include the loss incurred from driving legitimate business out of existence…

That's not an externality. An honest business is not entitled to any customer's business. If the customer wants to squander their money away at the casino, leaving them with no money to spend at the honest business, they have that right. It's their money, and they are not obligated to spend it at the honest business.

And in any case, the market for lemons is a theoretical exercise. It does not actually happen in real markets, because there are various market mechanisms that emerge to address it.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#208

Post by Fej »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #197

Anyone care to speculate on what this will do to ether/bitcoin values? Does this concentrate interest in the existing players?

Value is going to dip. They are speculative. Investments.

The big supporters of cryptocurrencies were under the delusion that they were exempt from financial regulations. Today the SEC reminded them that securities law applies to everyone.

This makes it significantly harder to invest. Investors getting out will cause a drop in the coins' value.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#209

Post by Jabanga »

Asdfbla wrote: post #154
Jabanga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but to protect U.S. citizens from being scammed all the time. US citizens shouldn't be treated like children that need to protected from their own stupidity.

Extreme libertarian views like yours have been rejected almost everywhere in the world. Maybe it's your opinion that allowing scammers to manipulate people is their basic right, but no one seems to share that sentiment.

You're not even representing my view accurately. My view is that scammers should be punished, not the entirety of the population on the premise of preempting crime.

Rejecting a person's argument on the grounds that it's "extreme [insert label]" that "everyone rejects" is not constructive.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#210

Post by 52-6F-62 »

dmoy wrote: post #190
consz wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should one believe a 17 year old, working 100 hour weeks and micro-dosing (really, what does this have to do with anything?) knows or is more capable than a 55 year old?

For that matter, I'd be skeptical about what any bank employee says about the SEC lol. My mom had worked at a big bank for decades and is not always saying nice stuff... (But in context it's cus they make her life harder)

This is the point that made me really chuckle.

While there's probably something to the motivated young weirdo hacker theory (it was William Burroughs who said "only the young bring anything in, and they are not young very long"), I would also very skeptical what a JP Morgan banker has to say about the SEC. It's like asking a bank robber what he thinks of the police (hyperbole, I know. Bear with me). There's a bit of a natural bias there.

That said, JP Morgan has launched their own Ethereum fork and is working closely with the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance and (to my knowledge) Vitalik Buterin. It seems they're sincerely chasing this tech (dragon?) for better intentions or for worse.

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