SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities • Hacker News Board

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#111

Post by Veratyr » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:56 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #64

vasilipupkin wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not just US persons. Germany has securities laws, France has securities laws, etc. I mean that German equivalent of SEC can go after those selling securities to Germans without following German securities laws

Serious question: Do you know any countries AT ALL that have no securities commission, or one that doesn't strictly regulate sale of securities, while at the same time the country allows formation of a company? Being that token sales are international, it would seem there is absolutely nothing illegal about opening a company in that country and offering securities. Even if the owners of the company are US citizens. T…

> Being that token sales are international, it would seem there is absolutely nothing illegal about opening a company in that country and offering securities. Even if the owners of the company are US citizens.

Actually the US regulates companies that so much as offer securities to US citizens. Try getting an account with a forex broker that's based outside the US and you'll see what I mean. The CFTC doesn't limit itself to US companies.

I haven't seen the same attempts being made on other kinds of securities but the framework is clearly there as the CFTC is using it.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#112

Post by Jabanga » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

chowells wrote: post #109

Jabanga wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic principle of liberal democracy is that we have an absolute right to personal autonomy unless we violate other people's equal right to the same. Making it illegal to offer a digital token for sale to other consenting adults, without approval from a central authority, is unconscionable. Before endorsing yet another law that restricts our right to engage in voluntary interactions, consider this: https://www.th…

You interfere with my right to personal autonomy by bankrupting yourself throwing good money after bad in stupid investments, leaving yourself destitute and in need of additional public services. Or do you also intend to claim that the poor should be allowed to die on the streets as punishment for not being rich?

No one has a right to force you to support someone who made themselves destitute. You're using one infringement of personal autonomy to justify another.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#113

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

SolarNet wrote: post #100

tptacek wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an answer to someone's question, but a non-sequitur answer to mine.

> with a link to some canonical thread about why the concept of security laws is fundamentally unjust or unwise Because not everyone agrees with that position.

You're still not there yet. Replace "canonical thread about" with "link to a debate about".

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#114

Post by EGreg » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #98

EGreg wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But can't their securities commission also pass such a resolution?

No, the issue is that it doesn't matter where you are based, if you offer securities to US persons, you have to abide by US securities laws. If you offer securities to Germans, you have to abide by German laws.

I an not sure that is binding on the company. Can you find a source for it in US securities law or SEC memo?

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#115

Post by cheetos » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

Jabanga wrote: post #108

cheetos wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is simply a massive difference between the theory of democracy and its actual implementation. Your personal autonomy is restricted by the government, massively, period, generally for everyone's own good. They decide what and how much medicine you can put in your body. Whether you can gamble, and where, and on what, and how much. What drugs you can take. What speed you can drive. Whether you must go to school or…

>Your personal autonomy is restricted by the government, massively, period, generally for everyone's own good. They decide what and how much medicine you can put in your body. Whether you can gamble, and where, and on what, and how much. What drugs you can take. What speed you can drive. Whether you must go to school or not based on your age. Which food you can buy at the supermarket. These restrictions violate peopl…

I truly hope that human drivers' "right" to drive at whatever speed they want is forever trampled by regulatory burden.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#116

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

SolarNet wrote: post #106

kasey_junk wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's suggesting that arguing whether SEC law being just/constitutional/what have you. Regardless of your position, is largely off topic for these posts. It would be better to just link to the argument somewhere else than derailing this one.

Except he implied that the link should have a significant bias. Also there is a collapse button.

It should auto-collapse threads like the one upthread about whether the SEC is fundamentally unjust.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#117

Post by maneesh » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #107

ilaksh wrote: post #82

The SEC should show that it protects everyone's rights and not just large firms with piles of cash to pay to them and to pay expensive lawyers. Otherwise we have to assume that this is largely about trying to tax things. The way they can do this is by making a real effort to update their technical, documentation, and regulatory programs. Is there a straightforward way to do an Edgar filing that doesn't require a bunc…

> Because an ICO can be created at no cost Except the cost to the participants who later have wasted money because the ICO contract was exploitable... At the current rate major losses are as perceptible as all successes. Maybe the industry needs some externally imposed speed bumps from SOME authority until folks can get their acts in gear?

Can you show me the losses vs successes?

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#118

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #107

ilaksh wrote: post #82

The SEC should show that it protects everyone's rights and not just large firms with piles of cash to pay to them and to pay expensive lawyers. Otherwise we have to assume that this is largely about trying to tax things. The way they can do this is by making a real effort to update their technical, documentation, and regulatory programs. Is there a straightforward way to do an Edgar filing that doesn't require a bunc…

> Because an ICO can be created at no cost Except the cost to the participants who later have wasted money because the ICO contract was exploitable... At the current rate major losses are as perceptible as all successes. Maybe the industry needs some externally imposed speed bumps from SOME authority until folks can get their acts in gear?

[deleted]

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#119

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #107

ilaksh wrote: post #82

The SEC should show that it protects everyone's rights and not just large firms with piles of cash to pay to them and to pay expensive lawyers. Otherwise we have to assume that this is largely about trying to tax things. The way they can do this is by making a real effort to update their technical, documentation, and regulatory programs. Is there a straightforward way to do an Edgar filing that doesn't require a bunc…

> Because an ICO can be created at no cost Except the cost to the participants who later have wasted money because the ICO contract was exploitable... At the current rate major losses are as perceptible as all successes. Maybe the industry needs some externally imposed speed bumps from SOME authority until folks can get their acts in gear?

[deleted]

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#120

Post by laser » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 10:01 PM UTC

Kiro wrote: post #8

robbiet480 wrote: post #4

This appears to only applies to ICOs that offer something that is like a security, such as the DAO, not voucher based ICOs like Primalbase or Storj EDIT: Added appears to since IANAL

Care to elaborate? What's the difference?

IANAL, but a security is profit-sharing/right to $-related things, like stocks and bonds. Tokens that are used to make purchases within applications/networks are not securities, for example in the Storj example above, tokens are bought to purchase storage, and there's no implication of organization profit-sharing or appreciation of value, etc. While some people may speculate on the growth of the network and purchase such tokens, their purpose is to purchase storage capacity from the network.