Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 546 posts

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#481

Post by wbl »

Danihan wrote: post #451
wbl wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to have Central Park West. It's another to have an entire region whose service workers commute from 3 hours away, whose public schools are off-limits to the poor, whose landlords got rich off of others labor. I see we welcome immigrants sign on the homes of people who have driven out anyone making less then $100,000 a year. It's shocking to see so many want to slam the doors of opportunity and a better…

>I see we welcome immigrants sign on the homes of people who have driven out anyone making less then $100,000 a year. That is why so many working class people see "big city" liberals as hypocrites. >but don't ask the state to help pay for your schools, roads, and pension costs while higher education support is massively cut. I'm not seeing the connection here.

Yes, Berkeley residents who downzone are hypocrits. That's the point I'm making. As for money if you live in CA you would know the UC system faces funding challenges while millions from the state to fund road maintenence in Marin and Atherton.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#482

Post by htormey »

oneshot908 wrote: post #255
derekdahmer wrote: post #195

> A spokeswoman for Facebook said none of the company’s contingent or contract workers have access to facilities such as clinics, gyms, or bring-your-child-to-work days One thing I liked about AirBnB was their entire staff including cafeteria workers and security guards were full-time employees who ate the same food, had access to the same facilities and events, and went through the first week 'bootcamp' alongside de…

See also senior and older FB engineers being discouraged from participating in perks and events intended for younger and junior employees because FB can multitask at sucking.

When I was at FB, I did several improv classes. I noticed a number of older engineers at them (40+). That was 2 years ago so maybe things have changed but I doubt it..

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#483

Post by kafkaesq »

tyingq wrote: post #468
kafkaesq wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty standard, isn't it? Actually it's a fairly recent invention. It only seems "standard" if one has no recollection of a time and a place (not so far back) when outsourcing (and the systematic discounting of blue collar workers, generally) wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is today. They may be working at Facebook, but they work for their own company. We all acknowledge that that's the way things (technica…

I worked for an office cleaning company in 1983. Contracting things like on site food facilities, security, building maintenance, and janitorial isn't new. Maybe the spread of how popular it is vs in house has changed, but it isn't new.

It isn't "new" of course, but it's been greatly, greatly expanded. Back around that time, if you considered, say a school district... it'd be nearly a given that most of those people were employees of the school district. Nowadays? Practically the opposite.

So I guess what I was trying to say was, while it isn't new, it's become so common that one could say that things have basically "tipped".

And it's the idea that this state of affairs is somehow "standard" -- is what's the invention.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#484

Post by chii »

kjksf wrote: post #467
tptacek wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't this happen more often?

Because the more you treat contractors as employees (including giving them the same benefits), the more likely it is that they'll sue you claiming they really are full-time employees and therefore deserve more. Exactly that happened to Microsoft ( https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-... ). Microsoft lost and, as part of preventing such lawsuits in the future, they limited things that are avail…

Ianal, but I thought that contractors normally get paid more than FTE, for the risk contacting implies.

Seems to me that a company is justified in treating them differently.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#485

Post by chii »

komali2 wrote: post #427
kafkaesq wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally see a difference other than the average wage for what I do. There's this "respect" part, which is one of the major points of the article. And the fact that you apparently don't even see it as an issue -- while those on the other side of the coin insist that it is, in fact, quite a huge issue -- is a great part of what makes it such a huge issue. If there's a wage issue in this case, it's not Facebo…

I wish it didn't have to be a matter for the legislators and the courts, but it seems like capitalism means that facebook has to not do the right thing for the workers if it's more profitable not to - obligation to the shareholders and all that.

If we only had capitalism and no legislation, the invisible hand would've made slaves of all of us for the few rich.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#486

Post by sologoub »

tmh79 wrote: post #471
sologoub wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also invest in improving public transit and shoring up what you already have - for example, BART and systems like it could be used to link areas more effectively/reliably. In talking with some friends in the Bay Area, all feel that East Bay is just too risky with problems BART has been facing in reliability, but all love the less congested feel of say Moraga or Walnut Creek. The article focuses on the fact th…

denser housing and better transit go hand in hand. Its hard to have a good mass transit system when everyone lives on their own 1/3 acre plot of land in a single family home.

Bay Area has natural choke points because of bridges and terrain. Because of this you can still have fairly efficient setup with some driving and park'n'rides at the hubs.

This is a lot harder to do with LA sprawl.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#487

Post by sjg007 »

linkregister wrote: post #453
Balgair wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty sad that the combination of the tax code, income based benefit eligibility, and a high local cost of living make something like "Divorce for the sake of the children" a real option. Christ, is this where we all are now? Just to work and eat, you have to get a divorce and try to finagle your way through the state systems? I don't even know if I know of a word for the feeling I get from this. Despair, resig…

Income inequality is far greater in the Facebook/Google/Mozilla types of places. Rural areas have much less variability. When hackers grow older, and decide they don't want noise and 4-story apartments nearby, then yes, the peaceful do have an impact. They don't feel it because they donate to EFF and recycle and have a "Nuclear-Free Zone" sign at the entrance to their town. But the root of Bay Area inequality is hous…

Well you can move just without your support system and build one. Plenty of people do that.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#488

Post by sokoloff »

akgerber wrote: post #470
Danihan wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's a bad thing why? Why shouldn't there be nice, exclusive areas to live in, just like there are exclusive schools to attend and exclusive companies to work for?

Because it's unjust, as these 'nice, exclusive areas' are the ones with the best access to employment and educational opportunities. And it creates an urban form that induces long, high-emission solo driver commutes and fewer residents in a part of the country that requires very little HVAC— both of which lead to a lot of climate change. And it maintains a segregated society, racially and otherwise, where the wealthy…

I believe that zoning is a proper matter for local governments. If it's not a local matter, it seems that governmental zoning has to either not exist or become a state or federal matter. I sure don't want the feds zoning my city, nor do I want the state doing it. I also don't want to live in a world of no zoning.

It's a pain that I'd have to appear before the zoning board to get a variance for a larger garage on my property, but the alternatives are far worse, I think, and I like the idea that fellow city residents are the ones deciding our zoning and variance process.

What concretely do you propose to effect a fix for the problem that you see?

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#489

Post by Danihan »

akgerber wrote: post #470
Danihan wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's a bad thing why? Why shouldn't there be nice, exclusive areas to live in, just like there are exclusive schools to attend and exclusive companies to work for?

Because it's unjust, as these 'nice, exclusive areas' are the ones with the best access to employment and educational opportunities. And it creates an urban form that induces long, high-emission solo driver commutes and fewer residents in a part of the country that requires very little HVAC— both of which lead to a lot of climate change. And it maintains a segregated society, racially and otherwise, where the wealthy…

Until everyone has perfectly identical IQs, attractiveness, charisma, strength, agility and luck, some things will be perceived as economically unjust.

In other words, it will always be this way. Life is a competition for resources and genetic legacy, there are always going to be winners and losers.

>wealthy may ignore social problems

Yes, that's one of the best parts of being wealthy. Being able to enjoy life without constantly worrying about other people's problems.

>And it's likely a significant drag on American GDP.

Doubtful. Silicon Valley is pretty segregated and does pretty damn well GDP-wise.

>it is an abuse of the a local government's police power to make it illegal to build apartment buildings.

Zoning laws are police abuse? That's one I haven't heard before. You'd want no government intervention then? Can we build miles and miles of structures like the Oakland Ghost Ship in your fantasy society?

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#490

Post by giobox »

chii wrote: post #484
kjksf wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the more you treat contractors as employees (including giving them the same benefits), the more likely it is that they'll sue you claiming they really are full-time employees and therefore deserve more. Exactly that happened to Microsoft ( https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-... ). Microsoft lost and, as part of preventing such lawsuits in the future, they limited things that are avail…

Ianal, but I thought that contractors normally get paid more than FTE, for the risk contacting implies. Seems to me that a company is justified in treating them differently.

They do normally if they are skilled "consultant" type gigs. In recent years though, using contractors instead of FTEs has been popular as a trick to get cheap labor - it's largely one of the foundations of the so-called "gig economy". As an example, this is most likely one reason why Uber spends such large amounts of money fighting any attempt to re-classify their drivers as FTEs in several different countries.

Many countries have some kind of legal framework that tries to prevent exploitation of unskilled employees by classifying them as self-employed contractors instead. Claiming your employees are contractors is sometimes abused as a way to avoid a bunch of expensive things employees might have a statutory entitlement to, like sick pay, holiday allowances etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/28/uber-uk-t...

Post reply on HN