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As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

latimes.com

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Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#131

Post by HillaryBriss »

ihsw2 wrote: post #55
PeterisP wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rising wages is notably mentioned in the article, and it is the implied reason for automation - the industry is not going to replace cheap workers with expensive workers, it's going to restructure everything (including the crop species it grows) to ensure that cheap workers are replaced with machines. If some industry is employing $10 million of labor and market wages go up 20%, the expected outcome is not spendi…

Tell that to the plethora of hotels that are constantly hiring contractors to clean their hotels because their staff either quit due to lack of pay or being overworked due to lack of staff. The same for trucking companies that are haemorrhaging drivers. The same for the construction industry. Market efficiency implies the market is managed well. It's not half the time.

Frances Gabe, an Oregon woman who took the first steps toward a self cleaning dwelling: http://kuow.org/post/remembering-frances-gabe-oregon-invento...

i think the idea still needs some refinement before it can be rolled out at a Holiday Inn though

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#132

Post by geomark »

droidist2 wrote: post #118
wernercd wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... then the flip: When will it be unethical to eat food harvested by companies that don't employ people? You can spin it in both directions... on one side, those poor people who do back breaking labor... on the other side, those poor people who can't get jobs that are done by robots. Interesting time we live in.

I'm imagining a "Made by Humans" sticker on products

"Hand Made" has already been a thing for a while. "Made by Humans" sounds like a good rebranding.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#133

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

randyrand wrote: post #129
jack9 wrote: post #124

"As California's slave labor shortage grows..." The awful conditions and pay and protections result in people not wanting to do the work, since it's not even a livable wage. Might as well be begging (or move to somewhere else to beg), which is the easier and ultimately healthier choice.

Relative to what? Humans have been farming for thousands of years under worse condition and worse pay, yet humans still did it. In fact, even more humans used to do it. So awful pay and conditions are not a showstopper.

Do you have citations most farming (historically) was done for worse pay under worse conditions?

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#134

Post by HillaryBriss »

corysama wrote: post #73
bcoates wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ag workers are not a huge cost driver to the retail price of food, so it'll be fine.

Does anyone have numbers on this? What I hear anecdotally is that American farmers are having a hard time because of cheaper produce from South America. Produce consumers are extremely price sensitive. If people can save 5c buying imported produce, they will.

"Wages, salaries, and contract labor expenses represent roughly 17 percent of total variable farm costs and as much as 40 percent of costs in labor-intensive crops such as fruit, vegetables, and nursery products."

Source: https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor.aspx

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#135

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

shostack wrote: post #128
ihsw2 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the plethora of hotels that are constantly hiring contractors to clean their hotels because their staff either quit due to lack of pay or being overworked due to lack of staff. The same for trucking companies that are haemorrhaging drivers. The same for the construction industry. Market efficiency implies the market is managed well. It's not half the time.

From a hotel accounting standpoint I honestly wonder which is more profitable for what I'd assume can be classified as a low-skill job: 1. Hire more employees and/or pay higher wages or other benefits to retain experienced (and thus presumably more efficient and effective staff) 2. Churn and burn with abandon because there will always be people desperate enough for any job to keep themselves off the street, even if i…

I suspect that number 2 is less profitable: the quality of work drops, your reputation drops, and the effective market rate you can charge drops.

But I think you can get trapped in a number 2 situation regardless -- eg, there's an economic downturn, so people spend less, the business "cost optimizes", which causes people to spend less, etc.

I think the second case is a sort of "survival" mode witnessed in fundamentally unhealthy economies where businesses are being squeezed because people in general are being squeezed.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#136

Post by HillaryBriss »

coredog64 wrote: post #49
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just import more from Mexico and have Californians concentrate on the higher value jobs.

This would be the best thing. US farm subsidies mean that Mexican farmers can't compete with US farms. If we stopped stupidly subsidizing farming[0], the Mexican economy would be able to make use of more of their citizens. They'd get the tax revenue, and maybe there'd even be more incentive to clean up corruption. [0] Food security might be worth some subsidization, but not the level that the US currently has.

Farmers in Mexico are most certainly competing effectively with US farms in some categories e.g. citrus, avocados and tomatoes.

And automated farm technology will (continue to) cross borders. These machines won't remain only in the US. They will be used in Mexico too.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#137

Post by HillaryBriss »

Clubber wrote: post #28
JustAnotherPat wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Picking fruit and vegetables has always been peasant and serf work. The market has never once said, 'you should be paid more,' because there always is an underclass and even if you paid triple what you pay now it'd be the same class of people working the job. The problem is every American thinks he's too good to be at the bottom of the barrel these days.

If it's a comparison between getting crap pay at McDonalds and getting crap pay in the hot sun all day, then there is no comparison.

Farm work tends to be structured as piece work in California. Workers are paid by the flat or bushel or even individual item.

Also, one nice aspect of getting humans out of the fields is that large numbers of human workers (at least) won't be exposed to pesticides.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#138

Post by forkLding »

Clubber wrote: post #28
JustAnotherPat wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Picking fruit and vegetables has always been peasant and serf work. The market has never once said, 'you should be paid more,' because there always is an underclass and even if you paid triple what you pay now it'd be the same class of people working the job. The problem is every American thinks he's too good to be at the bottom of the barrel these days.

If it's a comparison between getting crap pay at McDonalds and getting crap pay in the hot sun all day, then there is no comparison.

Ive done both and i much prefer McDonalds, theres just more in common between McDonalds workers than the people working on farms who can be sketchy or not even speak English and the kind of work at McDonaldd doesnt mean you are constantly utilized whereas in farming u are pretty much physically exhausted by halfway

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#139

Post by webnrrd2k »

hi1234567890 wrote: post #104
mullen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the Wheel? Wheels deprive millions of jobs for people to carry stuff.

I didn't realize this would prompt so much emotion. I only said it as a consideration. As a reminder this is a quote from Bill Gates ""If a human worker does $50,000 of work in a factory, that income is taxed," Gates said in an interview with Quartz. "If a robot comes in to do the same thing, you'd think we'd tax the robot at a similar level." < Google it.

Just to add a bit to the discussion - middle class wage earners generally pay a much higher over-all tax rate than the rich. The robot's labor would be almost certainly taxed like any other piece of equipment, with depreciation, etc... And the increased income would also be taxed at the same rate as the business. Both of these are, as far as I know, going to be much lower than the taxes that the original wage earner had paid.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#140

Post by yequalsx »

criddell wrote: post #93
xienze wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And native-born Americans aren’t interested in the job, even at wages that have soared at higher than average rates. Conspicuously absent in every single article claiming that Americans "aren't interested" in farm work is exactly what constitutes "higher than average rates". You _will_ find Americans interested in this work at some rate, but it's going to be higher than what you think it "should" be. In a country w…

In another comment on this thread, a farmer said he couldn't hire people at $25 / hour. If a machine can do it, then a machine should do it. Especially work that's difficult and can be dangerous - like farm work.

I'm certain people will do the work for $1 million per hour. Thus it seems a valid conclusion that $25/hr in California for this work is not the market rate.
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