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Where does a tree get its mass?

thelastpsychiatrist.com

51–60 of 61 posts

Re: Where does a tree get its mass?

#51
Three vaguely related observations:

1. When we lose weight due to eating right and/or exercising (excluding water weight), it's because the air that we breathe out is slightly heavier than the air that we breathe in.

2. When we're burning wood in a fireplace, the heat it gives off is essentially the sunlight that the tree has collected over its lifetime -- i.e. the heat difference between full sun and the shade of the tree.

3. A solar cell producing peak power is slightly colder than one that is either open- or short-circuited.

Re: Where does a tree get its mass?

#53
post #43
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As to precision it's more accurate to say 3 +/- 0.5 times 101 +/- 0.5 = 256.25 to 355.25 or 305.75 +/- 49.5 than to just say 300. Ah, problem is you've changed the question now. Which is a reasonable thing to do when face with 3 + 101.5 = ?, but not the point the author was making (or, actually, it is the exact point the author is making) :)

Ehh, I was trying to show why "significant digests" are a poor approximation of accuracy. His explanation in terms of addition is incomplete. Since "3" only has one significant digit (3.03.0 is a more precise number with 2 significant digits) the answer itself can have no more than one significant figure. 3 +/- .5 + 101.5 +/- .05 = 104.5 +/- 0.55 which has 2 significant digits. Now in his example 3 + 4.7 the three do…

PS: This is all assuming the accuracy based on the number of digits given you could easily have 3 +/- .0001 and 101.5 +/- 70.

That is the whole point :)

Re: Where does a tree get its mass?

#54
post #17

Feynman knows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1pIYI5JQLE

Can't upvote you enough for this. By the way, Feynman also knows the difference "between knowing the name of something and knowing something": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05WS0WN7zMQ

The difference between knowing the name for something and knowing something, is probably most clearly elucidated when you ask someone who believes in a deity, what it is. The answer is invariably contains contradictory, unreconcilable aspects.

Re: Where does a tree get its mass?

#55

The article started by pointing out a logical incongruency that most people have. I know better than to think the tree is made of the ground, however I know many people are not. However he's talking mass and reneges on his statement that trees are made from the air by stating that many trees are over 50% water. Well IMO when talking about mass the majority-share counts as the subjects mass origins. The plant breaks d…

>The rain falls from the sky. Save for a few very large trees that actually reach into the water table, trees well inland rely solely on the rain for their supply of water.

But they draw up that rain from the local soil using transpiration as I was explaining to my 4yo yesterday, I'm pretty sure he'll have forgotten it by now, I digress.

What I'm not sure about is rainwater capture - do shrubs capture (internally) water higher up the plant (eg in at limb connections) or are leaves simply directing the water to fall close to the "trunk" to maximise root take-up.

It's a good catch though as I'm sure I'd fall to the leap from knowing that "trees grow by taking in CO2 and that is where they get their mass of carbon from" to the false assumption that "tree mass comes primarily from the air" without really thinking about it.

Thanks for your analysis.

Re: Where does a tree get its mass?

#56
post #51

Three vaguely related observations: 1. When we lose weight due to eating right and/or exercising (excluding water weight), it's because the air that we breathe out is slightly heavier than the air that we breathe in. 2. When we're burning wood in a fireplace, the heat it gives off is essentially the sunlight that the tree has collected over its lifetime -- i.e. the heat difference between full sun and the shade of th…

You'll have to give me some citations for 1. A priori it seems sensible ...

Re: Where does a tree get its mass?

#57
post #51

Three vaguely related observations: 1. When we lose weight due to eating right and/or exercising (excluding water weight), it's because the air that we breathe out is slightly heavier than the air that we breathe in. 2. When we're burning wood in a fireplace, the heat it gives off is essentially the sunlight that the tree has collected over its lifetime -- i.e. the heat difference between full sun and the shade of th…

Re #1: You're ignoring metabolic byproducts that are excreted in urine or feces or sweat. Are there any byproducts that are released in the breath?

Re: Where does a tree get its mass?

#58
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Default assumption for whom? For a scientist, or someone working with real world data, this should never be the default assumption. Besides, in the paragraph with the arithmetic he explicitly talks about significant figures. In context, the answer is unambiguously 7 .

It's 7.2. Without context (and he gives none for the expression) everyone (including me as a scientist) must assume abstract numbers. What's more, we know he's not using measurements because there are no units...

[deleted]

Re: Where does a tree get its mass?

#59
post #51

Three vaguely related observations: 1. When we lose weight due to eating right and/or exercising (excluding water weight), it's because the air that we breathe out is slightly heavier than the air that we breathe in. 2. When we're burning wood in a fireplace, the heat it gives off is essentially the sunlight that the tree has collected over its lifetime -- i.e. the heat difference between full sun and the shade of th…

Re #1: You're ignoring metabolic byproducts that are excreted in urine or feces or sweat. Are there any byproducts that are released in the breath?

I should have qualified that by saying it's true to roughly the same degree as the claim that a tree's mass comes from the air. I.e. if you wave your hands and ignore a lot of potentially-important second-order effects, it more or less holds water :).

Re: Where does a tree get its mass?

#60
As the author of the article, I thought I'd add my observation about the comments here.

The point of my post was twofold.

First, an observation about what we think we know. When you say, "tiananmen square massacre" to people, most have a basic understanding of what happened, EXCEPT that the single image they have associated with it is the one of the student in front of the tank. That incident happened, of course, but it was the image selected to "teach" you about that incident, and that's what stuck. 1) This allows you to think you know something (one image), thought you don't know really anything (what was the point of the whole thing?) 2) you know only what someone else decided to tell you. If they had chosen to show you a pic of a student dropping a hand grenade in a tank, well, there you go.

Second, the most pointed criticisms on this board come from scientists (e.g. electromagnetic). This is because you're not relying on words, you're actually trying to understand the process. Some will do it better than others, fine; but my point was that most people are not taught that that process is important, they are taught only to "know" things. In college I knew a guy who could identify a lot (30?) dinosaurs. By name. Is he an expert? Everyone thought he was.

Point: when I asked him what the modern descendant of the triceratops was, he said it was a rhino. And no one disagreed with him, even after I pointed out that triceratops laid eggs and rhinos don't. He didn't know that, but even once he knew it it did not change his thinking; he was taught to think in terms of names and appearances, and he applied himself accordingly. (I write that story up, in case anyone cares.)

That he thought he was an expert is fine; that he didn't know dinos laid eggs is also fine, but it is of importance to understand the divergence between egg layers and mammals. That's where most people fail, and that's entirely the fault of the way we learn: the news.

It's not school-- we barely remember much. But watch a segment on the news, and you think you're informed, and then you extrapolate from that "information" entirely on the force of prejudices you've acquired from watching other news...

Who thinks China is mean to students? Ask around. Then ask them why they think that. I hope it obvious that had the desire of the news media been to tell you that the Chines govt. was nice to them...

I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but let me spin it around. While I'm guessing most of you are technically oriented, how many would bristle if, after a catastrophe, the government refused to send in crisis counselors and mental health support people to the site? It's not been shown to be effective, and could be counterproductive. But your intuition might suggest to you that it should be done, and so the govt. is left defending itself. Or perhaps you have a strong opinion on what Paulson should have done with AIG. Or whatever-- there is some field out of your expertise where you abandon your logical and scientific mind, in favor of prejudice and presumption in the form of empty words. And you don't know it.

The criticism that I am a poor writer is a common one. I know, I know.

I hope I made my point here (and perhaps enticed some readers?) without offending anyone, which is something I try very hard not to do.

Cheers.

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